Ok folks, I know I'm usually seen in the I/BFS Flower, but I'm very interested in one day hanging up my chasing of the blue hat (ideally after I have it!) and spending some years "mucking around" with a belly tank type vehicle given their history on the Salt.
Now I've been through the rule book and old Speedweek programs, but I've managed to get a couple of things in my head and I can't confirm if they are right or not, I know the braintrust on here will be able to answer in seconds so would appreciate a few pointers!!
Firstly, I thought I read somewhere that Belly Tanks can only run with Vintage Engines? Is this right?? Could I for example drop the I motors out of the Flower in a belly tank?
Secondly, can they only run in the lakester class? Given the speeds some of these very slippery "dragster" type cars are acheiving (I'm looking at the XO/BGL /BFL records that are up to 240 from 218 ish) these speeds seem beyond a belly tank to me realistically.... I'm guessing someone out there will tell me that Belly Tanks have knocked on the door of 300mph in the past and it's not impossible. But I'm surprised there isn't a seperate category for the tanks which is why I'm asking.
Thanks in advance for being kind despite my ignorance!
Rick
Actually, I think my thoughts on the engine come from a discussion about what feels "appropriate" to run in a belly tank rather than is actually legal in the rule book... finding plenty of belly tanks running modern motors now. But still wonder if it's "In the Spirit Of..."
Is there a case for Tanks to have their own sub-division in the Lakester class though?
My belly tank actually ran as a Streamliner originally (or bits of it did as they were first on the Salt in the 40s) and Belly Tanks didn't become Lakesters until 1951 I think?
Answering my own questions here, but interested in peoples thoughts...
Rick
Rick, your tank can run modern or vintage engines. Just like my modern lakester can run. Markley brothers were indeed pushing their tank towards 300 in the 60s!
BTW, I was going to drop you a line this weekend to see how the family is!
Here is their history.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-markley-bros-belly-tank-%C2%96-a-pictorial-history.384897/page-4#post-7380915
Quote from: pofg on September 20, 2014, 09:39:13 AMSecondly, can they only run in the lakester class?
No. Add 2 cycle fenders, you're a streamliner. I think the fastest streamliner and lakester at Elmo are one and the same car.
QuoteGiven the speeds some of these very slippery "dragster" type cars are acheiving (I'm looking at the XO/BGL /BFL records that are up to 240 from 218 ish) these speeds seem beyond a belly tank to me realistically.... I'm guessing someone out there will tell me that Belly Tanks have knocked on the door of 300mph in the past and it's not impossible. But I'm surprised there isn't a seperate category for the tanks which is why I'm asking.
No reason for another class, I'd say. I don't think the dragster-type cars are necessarily lower drag than a belly tank. It's just about the perfect form. Hard to fit everything in, with a big blown fuel motor, though.
"in the spirit of"....that got my attention.
Build a P38 Rick you'll need about 280hp to do 200.if you get it right.
Run Gas lakester, any motor you like, simple rules, room for a good cage , just don't paint it green.
If you're in love with trad tanks the P-38 style is for you, if not, then a straight center section tank can be a smaller bullet. Average size people like us can do a full lay-down in a 26" dia tank with a window in the nose. An LS engine & a Chinese turbo will fit in a 26" tank & you could go play in the hi 2's or better.
I'd make you a killer deal on a 26" F-105 tank if you didn't live in the wrong country Mate! :-D
Sid.
Chaps,
Great to hear from you all, hope you are all well and thanks for the gentle responses!!
A couple of years ago I bought an old Belly tank, needs a lot of love, but it's got history on the Salt since the 40's (well at least the steering rack does!)... I found it rotting in a Rod shop and had to save it but now I think they are getting bored of it cluttering up their shop and I need to do something with it!
It's a F-86 tank with a Buick Roadmaster Straight 8 in it... with a turbo.
The frame needs a load of welding to get it up to modern tech I think (last ran 2001 on the Salt), but seeing the XO/BGL records hitting 241 and change that strikes me as a tad ambitious for this set-up.
This car was actually once the record holder in both XO/BGL and BFL at 174 ish, but I'm not sure where another 70mph would come from given these engines are old tech and you are limited in what you can do by the rules (and the cash!).
I'd like to pretend that I'd be happy just showing up each year to potter with it and see you chaps (and to be honest, that's why I'm doing it, promised myself I'd never miss another Speedweek after this year), but I know I'd really want to be chasing a record. So before I invest some cash to restore it completely and get it all looking/running right, wanted to see if those speeds were really realistic or if I'm better taking a different direction right now?
It looks like I've scammed a load of parts and tech assistance off a large group in Europe (fingers crossed deal gets signed soon...), so the chances are that when the Flower returns to the Salt in 2015, she'll no longer have that Kawasaki lump in her... (can't say more right now, watch this space) so I'll have a bunch of spare engines etc that might be interesting to fit... but it doesn't FEEL right or in the Spirit of why I saved the car or what feels right for to convert her. I'd rather leave the Buick lump and just be non-competitive. Also since it's going to be a hobby thing, it's going to be funded out of my pocket rather than by sponsors and those Kwaka motors cost a load to run each year at the rate I break them!
Thoughts chaps?
And Sid, don't tempt me with another tank... I'm seriously debating learning to weld and build a new one from scratch, even though I know I don't have anything like the required skills/space or time!
Cheers
Rick
(http://s95.photobucket.com/user/sakowskimotors/media/saltflatracer/P1182088-1.jpg.html)
Try to attach an image of how she sits right now... she's the old 696 car if anyone has any period photos?
and this is the original belly tank that the family ran with some of the same parts on back in the 40's (supposedly, the trucks in the background look 50's to me, which seems more likely)
(http://s95.photobucket.com/user/sakowskimotors/media/saltflatracer/10.jpg.html)
Looking further at the info with the car, I'm thinking perhaps it was the record holder in the non-blown XO classes at 174 etc... so perhaps a well set-up turbo would find another 70mph over a N/A car?
Ok failed miserably with the pics...
Will try again: How she sits now:
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/sakowskimotors/saltflatracer/P1182088-1.jpg) (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/sakowskimotors/media/saltflatracer/P1182088-1.jpg.html)
and in the 40s/50s
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/sakowskimotors/saltflatracer/10.jpg) (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/sakowskimotors/media/saltflatracer/10.jpg.html)
F86 tanks were very rare on the salt in the 40s.
So were blown Buick V8's.
Bill
Lakesters are a strange breed even when you do as much as you can aero wise those tires are DRAG :roll:
The original bits from the 50's don't include the tank or the motor!! (Although it's a 1952/3 (?) straight 8....)... that pic shows a smaller tank I think (but same steering rack!!!) ;-)
Cheers
Rick
The 696 car was run by the Howey family ("Howey Doin' Racing") back a dozen or so years ago. We got to know them well since we pitted near one another a couple of times. Now that you mention it I do remember that they ran the Buick in the car.
As for the Buick straight-8 and the potential thereof -- ask Doug/Salt Cat Racing about the work they've done on and the results from that work on the Buick straight-8. In the liner he's over 250, I do think, and the liner is the lakester with wheel pants. He and his partners have done many things with the engine - and some of those might be of benefit if you tried them.
The rule book is a guide, it is not absolute.
as for the class of car, the tanks run in the lakester class without wheel covering, streamliner class with. a fender is a wheel covering.
you are right, the tank will never be as good aero as the long dragster style car, frontal area etc. the drag from a blower sticking out of the body should be compensated for by its presence.
as for motors, you have many choices, first choice is vintage or displacement class. then NA or Blown, then fuel or gas.
This is about what you want to accomplish, many of us run a compromise for one reason or another, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you.
BTW, the Buick Straight 8 can run vintage. There is much info available out there on this motor.
John
As soon as you started describing it I knew I'd seen it before. It was on Ebay a few times & I remember seeing a vid clip of the engine fire up.
If you're serious about wanting to go fast with it, you'll wanna lose the "Oil Rig" off the top of it Mate.
Sid.
I don't see a car in this photo. Would someone please point it out for me??
I'd recommend going back to square one. Read the Rule Book. Study a somewhat current SpeedWeek Program and look at the specs of about 30 Lakesters. Then ask your questions.
Quote from: Seldom Seen Slim on September 21, 2014, 10:05:16 AM
I don't see a car in this photo. Would someone please point it out for me??
A little more to the right & bown a bit!
Sid.
You mean the bit where I put my head Sid??? Was quite fancying the idea of something NOT totally claustrophobic after the Flower!
And Stan, I sleep with the rulebook under the pillow and read the last 6 Speedweek programs before my 2nd post on here. I've owned the car 2 or 3 years but felt it was time to tap into the braintrust on here. I'd love to keep the car as is with the straight 8 vintage motor... but if getting close to the current record is going to involve big changes to the car and big $$$ on the motor then I need to think about alternatives.
PS The bikini wearer in the photo is about 10yrs old SSS....
What is that thing? XO/BGL or XO/GL?
It's got a turbo thrown on so BGL but not properly set up at all so tempting to drop back to XO/GL but its been run properly like that when it held the record and 174ish was top whack...
Glad to see you moving forward Rick. :cheers:
Rick said: ". . .The bikini wearer in the photo is about 10yrs old SSS...." If that's the case -- unh, so what's your point? She sure looks older than 10 in the chestal and thighsal departments. Or are you saying that this is (to use the old hackneyed phrase we heard in high school) a case of "What nature has forgotten can always be fixed with cotton"? :roll:
Quote from: pofg on September 21, 2014, 10:32:59 AM
You mean the bit where I put my head Sid??? Was quite fancying the idea of something NOT totally claustrophobic after the Flower!
You could never make that tank as snug as the Flower. Sitting at the kitchen table inside an oil rig is not very aerodynamic way to drive a tank. If you get yerarse down in the thing so your line of sight is just outside, you can build a pretty slippery fairing that could blend back over the long-8 & give it a very period look at the same time & not be clausy.
Sid.
Like that idea Sid.. but also liked the idea of having my head in the breeze a bit! Had enough of choking on methanol fumes etc.... ;-)
This is the engine set-up right now... looks like it needs a little love?
(http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l146/sakowskimotors/saltflatracer/PC161736.jpg) (http://s95.photobucket.com/user/sakowskimotors/media/saltflatracer/PC161736.jpg.html)
Put some air holes forward of the canopy & at the top behind the driver, that'll give you clean air & won't hurt the aero.
I've never been a fan of draw through systems, if you get a leak on the boost side you have a huge fire risk with atomized fuel. My tank has a blow through with a Holley I modified. If you don't have the carb skills needed you can buy em ready to go. If you decide to run that setup, lose the intercooler, it's a fuel trap where the fuel will collect.
Sid.