I've thought about this idea a bunch of times, and I know others have, too (we've talked about the idea at venues other than this Forum - that's why you haven't seen it).
So - why not form a club that is specifically for those of us that live far enough away that it'd be a bitch-kitty to get to El Mirage for regular duty on a regular basis. Temper that with the idea that members of the club would have to give some time to those duties -- maybe once every year or two. Then the new club (the "Out Riders"? The "Out Landers"? Your preference?) could partake of the regular duty schedule (once or twice a year or whatever it takes) but individuals wouldn't have to fly in to SoCal save every year or two.
I expect that there are many racers that would like to be a member of one of the SCTA clubs but finds it difficult for one reason or another -- often the duty, sometimes the surcharge that non-local residents have to pay. With a big bunch of racers there might well be enough to fully cover duties as assigned without having one or three or whatever get to EM a bunch of times in a row.
And there are other reasons for a Club, too: One is that there are fewer Clubs now than there were a while back, so one more won't be breaking new ground by having too many clubs. Another is that many of the racers out in the hinterlands would like to do more for the avocation of land speed racing - more than just attending Bville whenever possible and maybe once or twice in a race career visiting EM for an event. And I know some of those out in the sticks would like the opportunity to be privy to the SCTA minutes and other information that regular club members get to see on a regular basis.
There you have it. Let's discuss, okay? Point out further good reasons, point out (if you can think of them) any reasons why there should not be another club. Remember that it's still just an idea in the heads of a few folks, so don't get too crabby because I've brought up the idea, okay? :-D :-D
Okay, here's some spaghetti - let's see what sticks to the fridge.
Of course, the acceptance of additional clubs would be dependent upon the current clubs agreeing to such an arrangement, so realistically, what could an additional club bring to the table?
Are there currently sufficient volunteers for the Elmo meets? Would extra bodies be an advantage or a hindrance? There would need to be a lot of training on the part of current members getting folks up to speed on procedures.
Can El Mirage sustain another maybe dozen entries per weekend from out-of-townies?
As to the meeting minutes, that's an interesting one. As my focus is Bonneville, I'm at the mercy of decisions made by SCTA member clubs that hold a higher degree of sway regarding Speedweek and World Finals. So far, I've had no real issue with that, but after this last year, with both SCTA-BNI events rained out, I can't help but wonder what kind of shape the organization is in. As a club member, I'd have a better insight.
And then there's the issue of El Mirage itself. The SCTA has had a long term relationship with the BLM regarding Elmo, and from time to time, I see or here of issues that need to be addressed to assuage the bureau. Would a larger SCTA be a help or a hindrance dealing with the landlord?
Subscribing
I see a part of the problem in the name. Southern California Timing Assn. Not UPTA or USTA. It was never organized to serve the entire country. That's what BNI is for. The SCTA exists because of and for Southern California dry lakes racers. What advantage to the existing organization would an at large club be?
Take a look at the El Mirage procedures specifically pages 17-17 appendix A, B and C,
http://www.scta-bni.org/pdf/2014/2014%20El%20Mirage%20Procedures%20Final_C.pdf
Every club has multiple duties at every meet not just once in a while.
Several years ago someone wanted to start a northern California SCTA club. It went through the motions and and never had the number of members along with the long distance they were from El Mirage.
As Jim Dincau stated in his remarks there are a lot of things that would be required. There are clubs that have members from all around the country and a couple from Canada. Not all clubs take out of area members. The dues are more and would require a club rep for board member meetings, a full set of bylaws etc.
I think SSS said they would have to pull duty just like any other club!!
Several months ago I posted an invitation of other members across the USA to contact me about becoming active to protect our access to public lands---this is becoming an issue that in my opinion the SCTA is going to soon need to address or they are not going to have any where to race!!
I would support any action that would HELP give LSR racers more of a NATIONAL political voice!!! WE NEED TO GET PRO_ ACTIVE or we will be LOCKED OUT!
Quote from: SPARKY on November 13, 2014, 08:22:32 AM
I think SSS said they would have to pull duty just like any other club!!
I read that, I just wanted to point out the number of persons required and that the number of posts to fill is indexed to the number of club members.
Thanks, Jim. I have wondered how the clubs and members divvied up the duties and you've given me a good place to start understanding. :-D
I have wondered about this in the past as well. But it always comes back to the problem of pulling lakes duties and attending the monthly board/reps meetings.
Figure on 1 lakes duty per member per year as a very rough approximation. So a 20 member club will need to fill ~20 spots per year at El Mirage. It gets pretty tough.
I think a better way would be for an existing smaller club to restructure itself as a long-distance-centric club with a few core members located in SoCal.
There are some members who like to volunteer every lakes meet, and they would like to even more if they were being paid to do it. So imagine a club structure that allows members to join as either a volunteering local, or non-volunteering distance member. The long distance members pay a cash premium to be a full member but without any duties. The local members get paid cold hard cash to work extra duties (say $40 per). Local SCTA members would want to join the club to be paid to do what they would probably do for free and long distance members would gladly pay extra to be a full voting member but not have to pull a duty. Of course the club would need a way to quickly disseminate information to its members and get their input on fast turn basis but that would be easy with a club forum restricted to club members only and everything posted there and voted on. They could even have a yearly get together party / banquet / elections at Speedweek.
Last year we lost a club due to low enrollment (Lakers, they fell below 10 members), it's a shame that happened when there are people out there who I think would join in the above scenario.
The idea JR points out above is sound. It was also announced at the last SCTA board meeting that we were in jeopardy of loosing another club (Eliminators) and they are looking for more members. So, if you guys are serious this might be a path you can follow.
As a long time member I have seen a lot of things happen to clubs and issues dealing with the lakes meets and duties that go along with it. A couple of months ago two members didn't so up for the 1/2 day patrol duty and we had to scramble to find replacements for those patrol stations. Each member is required prior to the meet find a replacement for their duty. Neither showed and each member was fined $200.00 payable by Dec.1st. Failure to do so will cause their membership from the club and loss of good standing within the club. The loss of good standing will not let them run or join another club until the fines are paid.
Our club the Gear Grinders post job assignments before the first meet and has all patrol positions are note for AM & PM duty stations. Thip duty assignment sheet covers the whole season.
The bylaws were written for everyone and all members are given one when they join the club.
Gentlemen, I thank you very much for the stuff you're telling us/me. I don't know the details of stuff like duties and club minimum member quantity and on and on. And I probably won't know lots of other stuff 'til you mention it here as a reason for/against getting those outside the "traditional" SoCal area clubs -- into a club where all know the full complement of requirements and privileges.
Keep the discussion going. Thanks. :cheers:
Hi SSS,
In looking at this, and the progression of the Internet, consider this: I do not see a reason why Individuals have to physically attend the club meeting at such and such location. Think about this: Soldiers in the armed forces can skype, Grandparents across the world can have conversations with their kids and relatives then afterwards send emails to communicate.
Most of us if not all of us, already have email and the technology to video conf.
So why is it mandatory to meet at such and such place? IMHO because so and so has done it for years.
Smart phones/Cell phones have replaced the land line, email is replacing snail mail, the list goes on and on.
The possibilities are endless. Consider the individual that is no longer able to attend meetings, or Speed week or land racing events, but is able to watch this on the net by simply clicking on a link in the email, or has fallen ill.
Also consider a younger type person, that is wanting or has a desire to do land racing, but is in another state. This is a way now for that individual to be involved.
As to how to pull duties at events, I don't have an answer for that, I wished I did.
Hope this helps, not trying to stir up the pot, just my opinion.
See you on the salt
Clay
When I saw this topic, I had a club in mind straight away
G
Quote from: Clay Pitkin on November 16, 2014, 08:35:50 PM
As to how to pull duties at events, I don't have an answer for that, I wished I did.
Hope this helps, not trying to stir up the pot, just my opinion.
See you on the salt
Clay
Clay, and there is the problem. The clubs exist to "be" the SCTA and the SCTA exist because of the clubs and the duties they perform. Those duties (see the SCTA website) are split up among the member clubs as stated before, so that is why a non local club is a tough pull.
Seeing as the SCTA's main function is to support LSR at El Mirage, and in light of the loss of a club and this year's rain in Utah, can the SCTA remain sufficiently viable as an amalgamation of clubs to continue its support of Speedweek and World Finals?
I sure don't know who else could take it on and get the experienced volunteer help it needs to be successful.
When i started running at El Mirage they were getting around 62 enterys at a meet. They were running a long time before I got there, and I expect them to be running for a long time in the future.
They have been around 76 years and have gone through lean years but still survive. A new club that would be active would require at least 3 years to be efficient to be a good club duty wise.
Do you have enough people that you need to add a club and understand what is expected of them 6 times a year.
Glen - and everyone: I haven't taken a poll to see who might be interested in a new non-SoCal club. And I haven't thought of a fair way to do the EM duties that are a big part of being a club. I'm just thinking of the keyboard.
As for would we have enough? Unh, I can think of hundreds of potential members, including some from South Africa, Sweden, Australia, France, and lots of other countries other than the US. And in this country we have hundreds of people that might be interested in joining a club. I don't think quantities will be an issue --- even if one in fifty of the "eligible" racers wants to join the new club - assuming we do manage to make it happen.
Duties? That's still to be figgered out. Where can I find a list of the total duties that have to be done by club members at an El Mirage meet? How many people must be there, and what are they -- course stewards, course walkers/cleanup, set-up of what stuff, and so on? I haven't looked at the EM procedure rules/list -- and if that's where they are I guess I can find them. Or so can anyone that wants to know.
Again, I'm just testing the water to see if there's interest in trying to form a club. It isn't happening yet -- just asking about it. And mostly because it gives us something to talk about during the newly-started non-race season.
More spaghetti . . .
What if a club of "outliers" were formed and the members of such a club would be adjunct members of current clubs?
By that, outlier members would be assigned tasks currently divvied up between the established clubs and work with a designated club as an adjunct member, with the understanding that in order to run at El Mirage, the adjunct members would have to first pull a volunteer shift at El Mirage.
You would then have volunteers for Elmo, and if the member decides they want to compete, the club that "sponsored" the outlier would receive any points earned by the outlier.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Seldom Seen Slim on November 17, 2014, 02:57:10 PM
Glen - and everyone: I haven't taken a poll to see who might be interested in a new non-SoCal club. And I haven't thought of a fair way to do the EM duties that are a big part of being a club. I'm just thinking of the keyboard.
Something to keep in mind, The EM duties are not a big part of being in an SCTA club, they are essentially the
only part. You help put on the meet so you can race in it. The SCTA is a blanket organisation created to enable a bunch of racers to band together to put on events. It exists
solely to put on the racing meets for the benefit of it's membership. And essentially all of those chores are local, "boots on the ground" duties. That's why the long distance issue is such a difficult issue to solve.
This is the reason why I think a dedicated long distance club could never happen. There is very little benefit for the SCTA or SCTA member clubs. However, I do think long distance members could be members within a normal SCTA club since the local infrastructure is already in place and the clubs will always have jobs that could be done from a remote location (website, mailings, merchandise sales etc...). If the long distance membership of a club was kept to a manageable proportion, say 20%, the club could probably shift the duty load to other willing members for a $ subsidy. But if you had 80% long distance members or more in a club then the local members would head for the doors faster than you could say overwhelmed!
JR has that about right. The Land Speed Racers of SoCal has about 65-70 members currently. We have members in Texas, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Alabama, that I can think of off the top of my head. The member in Texas only runs Bonneville currently, but wanted to be kept up to date on SCTA issues AND help the organization. He has someone pull his duties and compensates them in some way. On the other end of the scale the member from Alabama called me early in 2014 to volunteer for a patrol duty when he would be coming to El Mirage for an event. Many other clubs do the same but the bottom line is SOMEONE has to do the work.
Carry on with you ideas, as I'm not against a new club I'm just showing you why it might be difficult.
Why not start some clubs for ECTA and run for points and the rewards at the end of the season. They are big enough with the draw for the mid west and east coast. Hows that sound. I am sure SCTA would work helping set this up and get thru the learning curve. :cheers:
Quote from: Glen on November 17, 2014, 05:35:22 PM
Why not start some clubs for ECTA and run for points and the rewards at the end of the season. They are big enough with the draw for the mid west and east coast. Hows that sound. I am sure SCTA would work helping set this up and get thru the learning curve. :cheers:
Speaking for myself, I want to see both a strong SCTA and a strong ECTA.
But for me, it's primarily about Bonneville.
As SCTA holds sway over Bonneville, my inclination is to be supportive of SCTA-BNI.
As Michael pointed out, one of the SCTA clubs is having trouble maintaining membership, which makes dividing duties harder for the whole organization.
So here's a couple of questions that this brings to the fore . . .
A. Is there sufficient membership in the SCTA clubs to effectively cover the El Mirage events and still permit the members to get their laps in?
B. Is there sufficient membership in BNI to maintain racing at Bonneville?
I'm looking at a year where both BNI events at Bonneville were called due to weather, and it causes me to consider what someone outside the clubs can do to maintain both racing at Elmo and at Bonneville.
From an outsider's point of view, Bonneville is SCTA's baby, so a strong SCTA is in my interest. But if one of the clubs might fold, what does that say about the rest of the SCTA clubs?
As a non club member, I have no access to the information to properly assess the relationship or the health of the clubs, the SCTA or BNI.
76 years is a long time - the oldest auto racing sanctioning body in the country. The only thing that's ever stopped it is WWII and rain. It's volunteer, so I expect quirkiness in the organizational structure.
But Sears was around for 119 years until K-Mart bought them out. Fiat owns Chrysler. Things change.
Is the structure in place one that continues to make sense for Bonneville? If it is, would wider club participation be better for the whole sport?
Would outside support from clubs not directly affiliated with SCTA who are interested in maintaining Bonneville be a better approach than trying to join the SCTA?
Geez, I'm just an automated pasta machine . . .
Quote from: Milwaukee Midget on November 17, 2014, 07:10:52 PM... the oldest auto racing sanctioning body in the country [SCTA]...
IMCA (International Motor Contest Association)- 1915 to present. :-o
Quote from: Jack Gifford on November 17, 2014, 10:17:28 PM
Quote from: Milwaukee Midget on November 17, 2014, 07:10:52 PM... the oldest auto racing sanctioning body in the country [SCTA]...
IMCA (International Motor Contest Association)- 1915 to present. :-o
You're right Jack. It's definitely evolved over the years but it's been around that long for sure.
Pete
In todays political climate---WE ALL---- should be thinking on how we can get as many people from around the USA and the world involved if we want to be able to continue to race on "PUBLIC LANDS"---we better start organizing to get our message out!! I support anything that will get more of us involved---and if you want to race you had better understand that SCTA needs help along these lines ----even if they don't recognize it---otherwise ---lsr on public lands will go the way of the urban drag strips---GONE!!
I love being a GG with all their history---but---this access to OUR public lands, which is under sever attack, I would join a full service club of "OUT RIDDERS" OUTLIERS" "OUT of STATERS" with the understanding MANY responsibilities go with it, many am not even aware off.
I am sure that there are enough committed non CA racers that with a "can do attitude" something could get done!
It seems to me that it might make more sense to consider BNIs relationship to the SCTA than to have an at large SCTA club. Perhaps BNI could be restructured to make it more of a stand alone organization with greater input into SCTA-BNI affairs. All BNI members would be voting members and would be better informed through Email or the web page.
Quote from: Jack Gifford on November 17, 2014, 10:17:28 PM
Quote from: Milwaukee Midget on November 17, 2014, 07:10:52 PM... the oldest auto racing sanctioning body in the country [SCTA]...
IMCA (International Motor Contest Association)- 1915 to present. :-o
I've got egg on my face again . . . big time! :-o
IMCA, I just learned, is based in Vinton, Iowa - I grew up in Cedar Rapids - less than 30 miles away! :roll:
But I doubt if there is a large contingency of Kiwis, Aussies, Brits, French, or South Africans working on super modifieds to race at Boone, Iowa.
Which brings me around to this point. Racing at Bonneville is internationally recognized as the pinnacle of LSR.
We've all looked at it as we pass through Land's End. Most of us have had our picture taken by it. There's a sign, put up by the BLM, which reads . . .
"Bonneville Salt Flats International Speedway"
That's heady stuff.
If the sponsoring organization and sanctioning body that holds sway over two of Bonneville's biggest events, and sanctions records at a third, is not strong, and is perceived as a regional entity of clubs lacking a national and international membership base, rather than the internationally recognized organization that it is, then that perceived weakness might be exploited by those who, as SPARKY points out, might be inclined to limit our access to both El Mirage and Bonneville.
While IMCA my have "International" in its name, SCTA-BNI is actually international in its scope. A wider membership base at the grass roots level would strengthen that assertion.
Sorry, Chris- I did not intend to disrupt the dialogue of this important thread.
Please educate me a little on sanctioning bodies here in the U.S. regarding "international" aspects- in the "old days" (in my youth, say), USAC was our FIA-recognized North American sanctioning body (I think?). How did that come about? What U.S. group (groups?) does FIA now recognize?
Quote from: Jack Gifford on November 18, 2014, 08:58:13 PM
Sorry, Chris- I did not intend to disrupt the dialogue of this important thread.
Please educate me a little on sanctioning bodies here in the U.S. regarding "international" aspects- in the "old days" (in my youth, say), USAC was our FIA-recognized North American sanctioning body (I think?). How did that come about? What U.S. group (groups?) does FIA now recognize?
That was when the AAA got out of auto racing in the 1950s that USAC stepped up as the international contest body. I'm looking through some old MG land racing video footage, and I'm seeing the AAA involved up until 1954 - then in 1956, no signage on the record trailer. 1957 comes along, and I'm seeing guys wearing USAC hats.
Makes sense, given the Mercedes debacle at Le Mans in 1955, Ford and GM "officially" pulling out of racing, and US car sales climbing in '55.
Some sort of cooperation between FIA and AAA/USAC, I assume. MG claimed both American and International records during their private parties on the salt, but they were run concurrently with the same timers.
I think all you need to do today is wave a bunch of money under the FIA's nose, do all the work and let a few members make a junket to wherever, and you've established a FIA friendly environment for them to attach their name to a record.
Cynical? ME??!! :roll:
Don't forget the plane crash in '56(?) that wiped out all the top tier AAA racing officials.
DW
DW...AAA withdrew from auto racing after the 1955 LeMans disaster. USAC lost 8 key officials in 1978 in a plane crash. Could this be what your thinking of?
Bill
Yes Mike you are correct - no wine yet, working in confusion.
DW