I am very impressed by the SCTA rule book, but I do want to make a comment/question about a change that was just made to the motorcycle rules that are posted on the front page of the site.
The change to motorcycle modified production now says:
7.F MODIFIED PRODUCTION – M, MPS
" The Modified classes are intended for "modified" production models and not purpose-built racing bikes.
These classes include all On-Road, On-Off-Road and
Off- Road only models and limited production models (more than 50).
These classes do not include factory-produced Road Racing or any other specialized racing models UNLESS AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC."
The last sentence used to stop after the word "models" but now adds "UNLESS AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC". It appears to me that certain factory produced road racers will now be allowed in the Modified Production class. I believe these bikes previously were only allowed in the motorcycle Special Construction class(A or APS). I believe this will allow 125 and 250 TZ Yamahas and maybe RS Hondas. Possibly some others also. I say this because I believe many years of the TZ Yamahas were well over 50 and sold to anybody with the money. Also they were not that expensive in the scheme of things.
There are still a lot of even more specialized factory road racers that will not qualify for the modified class but the TZ may be an unintended consequence of this change. The TZ or RS bikes are in a class by themselves compared to any modified street bike.
Well in 2005 it said
Frames must be based on an OEM type frame or production replacement having similar geometry. This class includes factory produced road racing and off road motorcycles and models of which less than 500 were produced. Factory limited production or "works" models are included in this class.
I didn't look back further because that would entail getting out of my chair and getting an older book our of the basement, but since it was not in bold type, I suspect it was like that before. So over the last 10 years has there been a rush of those bikes racing on the salt? The idea was to move the bikes that were not available to the public to special construction and leave the ones that were in modified.
I think it is working... :cheers:
and finally I see an appropriate use of SSS new emoticon... you are :dhorse: :-D
My four year old and newer rule books don't say "This class includes factory produced road racing" like your 2005 book. Thank you for pointing out how this progression of what constitutes modified has taken place over the last 10 years.
I don't see how understanding this progression is beating a dead horse since the wording is changing in the 2015 book, but thanks anyway.
I think they should now split the Modified category and allow for more motorcycle classes. We need a thicker rule book and more open records.
And Stan's reply..... well that's Stan....
Dave, the new wording was clarifying the rule so it was like it had always been before they reworded to to make it more understandable.... thus the dead horse.... followed by a smiley, because it is all fun.... :roll:
except for maybe Stan who wants to see more classes so he can gain a competitive edge... :cheers: :cheers:
Just waiting for springtime and the cherry-picking season.
:-)
A lot of those old Modified records were set on TZs.
I see that now. Thank you. :-o
As I understand it Scott Guthrie set a lot of those fast records, in Modified, on various TZs and then was part of the rules committee that then changed them so you couldn't do the same. Not sure if that is the truth, and I don't really care.
It doesn't really matter as TZs are really outdated anyway, and are getting collectable and expensive.
They way i read it this Rule change seems to contradict itself.
The first sentence says
7.F MODIFIED PRODUCTION – M, MPS
" The Modified classes are intended for "modified" production models and not purpose-built racing bikes.
Then says
These classes do not include factory-produced Road Racing or any other specialized racing models UNLESS AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC."
The late Model Yamahas 5KE TZ and the Honda NXA RS 250s are about as powerful a "available to the public" 250 as you can get at around 90hp ...
you just can't get anywhere near that power out of a 250 Road Bike ... I run a Suzuki RGV 250 (2 stroke V Twin) and they top out at about 75 hp.
I always thought that Modified was for Modified versions of the Bikes that could run in the Production Classes and Special Construction was for
7.G SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION
The Special Construction class is intended for purpose-built race bikes.
If the existing Records are held by Bikes no longer eligible then it would have made more sense to retire the Records rather than re introduce purpose-built racing bikes back into Modified.
Pete :cheers:
SCTA/BNI..... NEVER retires old records..............they just change the class ......like SC-AG-1300 in 1990
they just changed it to SC -1300......they had a streamliner sidecar record on the books, they allowed a NON-streamliner to run against that record....and that record stands to this day. They just change when they get a NEW motorcycle chairman to what ever he/she feels like.............WHITHOUT TELLING THE RACERS IN THAT CLASS....new chairman ...new class ...........................one of the many reasons we stopped racing SCTA/BNI in 2002 and went with AMA/FIM ........................................................................................
Bob --
I've always been a fan of yours. And you know I don't know s-hit about motorcycles, let alone sidecars (although I was an alternate driver (rider?) scheduled to drive (ride?) on SpeedWeek last year.
But . . .
I can't find the class SC/1300, let alone any 1300 class.
And I can't see how anyone can complain about losing a Streamlined class record to a non-Streamlined class vehicle that beat their record and the their record still stands 25 years later.
SCTA is not perfect. Our volunteers earn every penny they get. Please straighten our warped assess out on this one.
Remember, sour grapes sometimes make fine wine (Huh, Dan?).
Stan
Stan. Are you still my alternative rider for this year?
Get out your old rule books kids.... no conspiracy here...
Quote from: Stainless1 on January 14, 2015, 12:15:07 PM
... The new wording was clarifying the rule so it was like it had always been before they reworded to to make it more understandable.... :roll:
Special construction.... read it after you read modified, race bikes available to the public are modified (if they make 50)... One offs and factory works racers are SC
Back in the 80's they even allowed factory works bikes in modified, now they are in SC.
:dhorse:
Hey Stan....I don't know how long you have been with SCTA/BNI....BUT I am looking at a wall trophy from a 1988 record that states "SC-AGB-1300" at 152.680mph.....and another one right next to it from 1991 "SC-ABG-1300" at 160.406mph. so there must have been a 1300 class....Right....SCTA in there wisdom...(I believe in the 1990) redid the class to 1350 (there is a example that the 1300c.c. records should have been retired)..............If you look in the rule book under 1350c.c. it shows my record as SC-BG-1350 set on 8/91...However, my record cert. and trophy shows it for class SC-ABG-1300............so SCTA/BNI (without any consultation) just changed the whole class...............What say you now STAN?????............................
Not sour grapes Stan...........I just think that if a racer goes to all the effort and expense to set a Bonneville record the least a org. can do is get it right and if they plan on changing the class consult with the people involved and retire the "old" class records...........What say you STAN???????
AND..... as a follow up to my last post, about the sidecar streamliner record we had in 1990 at 174.202 mph.
(we could not run the liner in 1991 to up our record due to the fact that SCTA/BNI noted it was not safe, it was safe in 1990, new motorcycle chairman, not safe in 1991) however, it was a SIDECAR STREAMLINER record..................So in 2009 John Stege set a SC-F record with a non-streamliner sidecar against our STREAMLINER record......they just took our record away and replaced it with John's great effort........no phone call............no consultation.......no nothing............KIND OF MAKES YOU WONDER ABOUT ANY AND ALL RECORDS BE IT M/C OR CAR NOW IN THE SCTA BOOK, don't you think
PS. The sidecar streamliner...safe in 1990 no changes...not safe 1991 is now in the Barbour Museum
Sour grapes........maybe just a little....................Hey, and don't get me started on passengers in the sidecar
and SCTA ruling and their excuses.............., that's another long story
Bob --
First, and again, I don't know shi-t about motorcycles. And I guess it shows.
You've got 5 years on me, but I've been "involved" with SCTA since 1972.
I don't know what happens to "retired" records. Early SCTA car records ran under different classification systems. Were these then retired? I don't know. I'll Goggle old record retirement homes and see what I come up with. I know the current Rule Book doesn't have a "retired" section, but sure has a lot of motorcycle records.
My Roadster has been "safe" one year and then not the next. I've had to update it through the years as the rules changed.
Years back, the SCTA instituted the Classic category for various car records. They did their best in moving current record holders they then believed fit that category into the Classic records. So some cars, including one that I was very little involved with, ended up being the record-holder in a class that they'd never run in.
I've seen a lot of SCTA record-setters in museums. A lot of museums honors vehicles from the past which set records and also may, or may not, be legal to run today. That's what museums are for, I guess.
I agree with you -- I would also like it if Side Cars had passengers. But that is not what the SCTA rules allow. No one forces any one to compete in any event. But if one competes in the event, he should use their rules as competition guidelines. And can join the association or governing body and work to make the rules more to his liking. The SCTA has allowed competitors to do this. Yes, it's arduous, but I'd bet it would be easier to do there than in FIA, Nascar, etc.
I don't have all the answers, but I sure got opinions. Some knowledgable, some not (see above first statement).
Stan
Yes...that is why since 2003 we have not competed with SCTA/BNI and have raced with BUB (now BMST)
but until Denis started having a all M/C event.....SCTA/BNI was the only game in town for LSR at Bonneville
(and BMST allow per AMA/FIM rules a passenger in the sidecar)...........SCTA/BNI have always liked to change rules when a new group of "Good Old Boys" take over...........and they are a car "club" and care less about the M/C"s and certainly sidecars ..........But when you set a record no matter what org. one likes to keep it in the books as it was set in class......if you change the class...retire the old record.....don't just show a new class in the rule book and move the record holder to the new class.....even FIM (with it's many faults)
retires old records when there is a rule and class change.
PS. Until the late 1980's SCTA/BNI did allow for a passenger in the sidecar....but for no good reason they changed the rules, again without consultation...(thanks Elmo) We put a Dummy in the sidecar streamliner and called him "Elmo"...