This may seem quite trivial, but here goes anyway.
As in drag racing, there are a few important things important to the performance of a land speed racing vehicle, including
(but not limited to) mass, power, traction, and aerodynamics.
Typically, land speed racing involves a push vehicle that is allowed to push the race vehicle at the start of its run. The
amount of pushing allowed may vary depending on the rules. I once read that there is a distance limit of 300 meters, but I also seem to remember that (perhaps based on the rules of a different sanctioning organization) the limit is 50 mph. In either
case, the distance beyond that limiting distance/speed provides an opportunity for the race vehicle to accelerate under
its own power, rather than being further helped by the push vehicle.
It should be clear that if the allowed self-powered distance is maximized, the race vehicle may benefit from every little bit
of available distance, provided that acceleration is still happening at the end of the timed part of the run (i.e., timed mile
or timed kilo). Therefore, the more aggressively the push vehicle can do its job, the more performance should be available
for the race vehicle if it is set up in such a way that it doesn't lack power, traction, slipperiness, ability to rev, and adequate control to be still accelerating at the end of the timed part of the run.
Therefore, the push vehicle, if optimized, should be very powerful, relatively light, relatively aerodynamic, while having sufficient traction to maximize the speed of itself and the race vehicle within the allowed push limit.
I can imagine a push vehicle with a huge (low-speed) spoiler, or fan(s) or a suction area (a la the famous Chaparral at
Laguna Seca, decades ago) pushing the vehicle down to help provide traction, along with a huge powerful engine that
is not necessarily intended to last a long time. I also don't know how much difference it would make to most land speed runs if the gain in available self-powered distance is just a few yards. But it could make a difference. I welcome comments about this.
The Blue Flame used a push vehicle (Dana Fuller?s van) to assist in setting the FIA world land speed records for the flying start mile and kilometer in 1970. The rocket consumed 2,000 pounds of propellant in 20 seconds. While the rocket was designed to produce 22,000 pounds thrust for proposed supersonic record runs, Goodyear limited our top speed to under 700 miles per hour in 1970. So, the rocket was detuned to 16,000 pounds thrust. Problems while on the salt flats further limited our thrust to 13,000. The Blue Flame was operated at full thrust for 20 seconds, turning off in the middle of the mile timing zone. So, it accelerated for the first half mile and decelerated the final half mile. We needed more acceleration time to achieve the FIA world record speeds. Pushing the car up to around 50 miles per hour allowed us to burn the rocket longer at the highest speeds. The push actually produced another 22 miles per hour for the mile and kilometer timed speeds. This process was permitted by the ACCUS/FIA timing officials in 1970.
The point here, is the 2 seconds propellant used to go from 0 to 50 miles per hour was used at the high speed end of the burn. By the way, the peak speed we measured in the mile timing zone was 666 miles per hour. We kept our promise to Goodyear not to go 700 miles per hour.
This was Gary's IP view of the speedometer.
Over the years I have watched a lot of blown fuel cars using solid blocks start on the the line and push to the 1 mile so they could get the the 3 for timing I dont believe any were pushed over 50 mph. I have also witnessed supercharged push streamliners at least to the 1 mile as fast as they could go..
We push to 30-40 MPH is the shortest distance possible... the driver lets the clutch out and pushes the loud pedal when the car hits 35... the push continues until the car pulls away... the Bockscar accelerates a lot faster than the push truck.
I think you might get a visit from Lee if you push past the first 1/4 mile marker although there isn't a published rule that I am aware of.
We push our roadsters up to 50-60mph. Depending on the gearing. Usually by that speed we can accelerate faster than the push vehicle. In the diesel streamliner we pushed to 30mph because of the torque of the diesel allowed us to accelerate earlier. You can push all the way the first mile. But there really isn't any need to do this.
I always pushed as fast and hard as the track would let me. I just told the driver to pull away when he was ready. The race car could always out accelerate the push truck.
Not to hyjack, but this is good information. The push itself. What is everyone's process? I see a couple above. I have heard of people having their car in gear with clutch out and allowing the push truck to push to a desired rpm; then get on the gas. I will hopefully be figuring this out in 2026.
I do often fantasize about a AA blown fuel push truck for my little D/minitruck for a little kick off the line
I would not worry about a regular type push vehicle unless you are running a vehicle so under powered or the motor so fragile that it might blow up before it ever gets to the timing lights. JMO.
I pushed my old Street Roadster off at El Mirage with my 1997 Dodge Diesel Truck with a compound low gear 5 speed stick transmission using 2 gear which topped out at around 20 mph. When I hit the governor in that gear I would honk the horn for the driver to put the roadster into gear and accelerate away from the truck. The roadster was running an automatic transmission without a Torque converter and that is why we had to push it in the first place. The roadster was not very fast at 163 mph but it would hit that speed at the mile, yet we had another Third of a mile to go. For the fun of it we tried different gearing etc. but that was going to be the top speed for that motor in that roadster period. So we hit our limit on aero vs. horsepower at El Mirage.
Tom G.
We always used my towing vehicle, a 3/4-ton Chevy with a 5-speed (really usually 2nd, the 1st is a granny) 6-litre motor. Have the roadster started, push as hard as you can. Get away from the truck as soon as you can as we won't push again.
El Mirage seems three blocks long, so you better be accelerating rather that cleaning out the engine.
If I remember right, the fastest wheel-driven run ever was without a push.
The Beast pushed down to the 2 at either WoS or the Finals this year. Don't remember which meet. Just so they could run to the 5.
It was a disappointment for those of us at the line and a huge waste of time for the other racers waiting to run.
Is there really a rule????
If so why do certain teams get to circumvent it??
Maybe there should be a line at a certain distance from the 0 marker and if your vehicle is still on the push truck your run does not count.
Even the playing field.....
I remember in 1960 Tom Beaty telling about pushing Art Arfons with Tom's blown Olds '40 sedan delivery with Arfons helper Snyder? as a passenger . Arfons accelerated and Beaty pulled alongside with Snyder with his movie camera going and exclaiming . Fast sedan delivery .
Pushed to 60-70 as hard as possible. Only had a 2 speed lenco in the car. SB
Quote from: John Burk on November 19, 2024, 10:40:43 PM
I remember in 1960 Tom Beaty telling about pushing Art Arfons with Tom's blown Olds '40 sedan delivery with Arfons helper Snyder? as a passenger . Arfons accelerated and Beaty pulled alongside with Snyder with his movie camera going and exclaiming . Fast sedan delivery .
I used to drop by Tom's shop on Glenoaks and talk with him. He told me he ran the sedan delivery at El Mirage once. That it was like driving on marbles and ran 140 mph.
Tom G.
Back about 90-ish we ran Betsy at an FIA meet put on by Jim Feuling & Oldsmobile. They couldn't get the turbo's to spool up on the Quad 4 & Jim asked me if I was game to push it to speed. That Olds Calais was a squirrely little car hiding under the front of the truck at 100mph for a few seconds. That was the 7/8 scale Olds. :roll:
Also back in that era when Vesco's were still running piston engines they had some guy pushing their liner with a red CJ5 Jeep that had a blown BBC oozing out of it & that made some serious runs!
Sid.
Between Lee Kennedy and Mike Manghelli pushing me off I have a new outlook on life. :cheers:
Wayno
.Tom Beaty story from 1963 Speedweek,
My partner Ken had an exciting ride. We were on the starting line when Tom Beaty's wife says "one of you guys come with me to pick him up at the big end". Tom fires up the lakester, a blown olds with a starter no less, and Ken jumps in the shotgun seat on the 40 ford panel. Now mind you the push truck also is equipped with a blown Olds and Tom's wife is driving like she is going to follow him right through the lights. In all the noise and confusion Ken suddenly notices a lack of floorboards on his side; it was real interesting watching the salt go by my feet at one hundred plus says Ken. He didn't volunteer for that job again.
At El Mirage I push Troy in the 222 Camaro with my 450 hp Ford super duty.
4 wheel drive, roll in to petal to the metal, Troy likes to start at 1st cone, about 5 sec.
it's a lot easier to gain mph at low speed than hi speed when the course is going by faster.
With over 2000 ft lbs of torque we can do this.
JL222
I think there's a couple of "One Run Bob" pictures taken by Ray the Rat on this site... the push can be exciting
Come on, Stainless -- dig them out for us!
(I was managing the photo line over on No. 1 when Ray told me he was done for the day. I said, "Not now, Ray. Look over at the starting line." -- "Why?" -- "It's One-Run Bob -- This might be good!" And it was!!!
Stan, here are you pictures. Just go to Landracing Forum ?Misc Forums ?Health, Welfare, and Passings ?Ray the Rat reply 268 and the pictures are there.
Tom G.
Re: Ray the Rat
? Reply #268 on: September 23, 2023, 08:59:13 PM ?
Bob has a nice ride, just needs more than one run at a time. But we all know that. :evil:
* Bob Truck.jpg (34.79 kB, 1024x261 - viewed 177 times.)
* Bob Spin.jpg (48.09 kB, 800x533 - viewed 156 times.)
Logged
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird
Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!
Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...
Thanx Tom.
All I heard was Ray's camera going slikity-slik. He showed the whole drive and was easier to see than the explain Bob was chasing his pusher back toward the line.
(Maybe someone who knows our site machinery works could post it up here. Way beyond my ability.
Just for you Stan... every one else owes me a penny
and a bonus https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4f1Hmz19yTU
This is off the original subject a bit.
I'm a bit of a purist regarding what the rules should be. If a race vehicle is an "automobile", it should be able to, from a
standing start, make its entire run under only its own power. This implies that no pushing or towing by another vehicle would be allowed. I think that the rules, in all sanctioning organizations for land speed racing, should dictate that the entire run should be made by the race vehicle under its own power, without help from another vehicle.
Are you trying to go MO on us and rewrite history??
Quote from: tallguy on March 05, 2025, 06:50:15 PM
This is off the original subject a bit.
I'm a bit of a purist regarding what the rules should be. If a race vehicle is an "automobile", it should be able to, from a
standing start, make its entire run under only its own power. This implies that no pushing or towing by another vehicle would be allowed. I think that the rules, in all sanctioning organizations for land speed racing, should dictate that the entire run should be made by the race vehicle under its own power, without help from another vehicle.
None of the high speeds would then be achievable. Simple as that.
Quote from: tallguy on March 05, 2025, 06:50:15 PM
This is off the original subject a bit.
I'm a bit of a purist regarding what the rules should be. If a race vehicle is an "automobile", it should be able to, from a
standing start, make its entire run under only its own power. This implies that no pushing or towing by another vehicle would be allowed. I think that the rules, in all sanctioning organizations for land speed racing, should dictate that the entire run should be made by the race vehicle under its own power, without help from another vehicle.
That statement tells me that you are not a racer... of course if the SCTA allowed thrust vehicles the fastest of them wouldn't require a push... aktion086 aktion086
Quote from: tallguy on March 05, 2025, 06:50:15 PM
This is off the original subject a bit.
I'm a bit of a purist regarding what the rules should be.
It's a valid topic worth discussion.
Basically, if it takes two vehicles to set a record, why does only 1 take home the trophy?
shouldn't both receive the same credit?
Quote from: gowing on March 06, 2025, 08:28:57 AM
Quote from: tallguy on March 05, 2025, 06:50:15 PM
This is off the original subject a bit.
I'm a bit of a purist regarding what the rules should be.
It's a valid topic worth discussion.
Basically, if it takes two vehicles to set a record, why does only 1 take home the trophy?
shouldn't both receive the same credit?
HELL NO and not worth discussing
Purist troublemaker
JL222.
Great rebuttal! Very insightful JAL AKA JL222
Instead of insults,
How about stating your opinion as to why you feel this way?
"purist troublemaker"
seriously?
That's a great idea!
All racing should be like that!
Take the Daytona 500 (please -- the Skittles "stock" cars). Get 'em 30 cars abreast and go for it!!!
Even better -- the old LeMans start. Don't strap them in any more. Shoot the gun and run for it!!!
It's fresh ideas like this from sources that have imagination rather than experience.
Quote from: gowing on March 06, 2025, 09:46:25 AM
Great rebuttal! Very insightful JAL AKA JL222
Instead of insults,
How about stating your opinion as to why you feel this way?
"purist troublemaker"
seriously?
Yeah seriously, Cost of trophies, record keeping and undeserved, the most ridiculous suggestion ever heard
New motorcycle record set at 61 mph, hand pushed by Joe fast at 1.66 mph :cheers:
Why do you feel this way?
JL222
Good point.
If a vehicle needs assistance getting down the track... where does it end?
My slow motorcycle record of 130 was set by the bike alone.
Hypothetically, If I was to have put my bike in the back of a truck and ran that down the course, did it still set a record?
I mean, after all... the truck was just "assisting" right?
As far as a "purist" attitude:
I truly believe that the Daytona 500 should be a 500 mile race. Not broken up into 3 segments.
Don't you?
And to take it one step further,
What about return runs being made in the opposite direction as tradition dictates?
Is that another topic that should be off limits?
I'm glad that there's still some life left in this community. Thank y'all for posting.
It was never my intention to insult or anger anyone here. I'm not on a crusade/mission to have the rules changed. They
seem to be working okay as they are. And I'm not suggesting that any existing records be erased. I am a fan of improvisation, creativity, and problem-solving ability . . . all of which seem to be quite abundant in the world of motor sports.
As Stainless stated, the fastest wheel driven car to run at Bonneville did not need a push truck. Don't believe me watch the video. It was done. :cheers: :clap :cheers: :clap
Tom G.
https://youtu.be/9C50bYtvof0
Does the push vehicle help to preserve the salt conditions at the start line? We push our car with a four wheel drive pick up, and do not get very "western" with the push. We do not feel it gains any speed advantage, as we are basically at top speed by mile 3 and our 4-5 mile speed is rarely any faster than the 3-4. I know not all vehicles are the same, with many still accelerating thru the 5, but that is where we are. With the small displacement, 0 low rpm torque, and on/off power delivery we have and we did not push it we would either have to induce some tire spin to get it off the line, or abuse the clutch a bit to prevent wheel spin in 1st gear. While clutch/tire life is the main concern for us, would the salt get tore up significantly more if more vehicles spun the tires at the start?