I posed a question about a roll cage for gas coupe and everyone was very helpful but I've been told several things. Some have suggested a funny car cage, others a full containment seat, but I don't think you can have both - can you? Planning to run in Gas Coupe in a Monza, any suggestions on funny car cage vs. full containment seat?
can you get in and out with both :-P
I don't know, Sparky. Do most people run both? Or is it "either-or."
It's not "either-or".
Tech would like to see a funny car cage but you may still need laterial head restrant so a full containment seat might be what you want to do. Just remember, the rules are a minimum.
Will a full containment seat fit inside the funny car tubes? It looks like its too wide. Does anyone run both?
As with any cage there is no cookie cut cage. A funny car "Style" cage can be built to safety accomodate a full containment seat if the car's chassis will allow it. there are some examples elsewhere on this site that show a containment seat inside a funny car "style" cage. Remember a funny car cage is a cage around the seat within a rollcage (10 point,12 point).
A properly constructed and installed containment seat with a full cage is a good choice, or a good seat with a full cage and funny car cage added also incorporating lateral head restaint system... I say either or !! the funny cage does what a containment seat does sorta and vice versa.
I prefer a fitted containment seat, as a Funny Cage "generally" does not fit the hips, ribs, shoulders and head as well as the containment seat does... but to each his own.
Charles
As mentioned above by others, rule 3.A.3 Page 24 does not prohibit both cage and seat containment. The issue, however, may be cost. You can purchase a very good seat, with excellent containment for the body, without the head restraint at about 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of a full seat. Rule 3.a.3 is focused only on lateral head restraint. You can easily build that kind of restraint into a good roll cage. The question is; can a cage modification (i.e., addition of lateral restraint) be done cheaper than the purchase of a full seat? In most cases a cage modification may be less expensive than the head-restraint-seat. The cage also "may" be stronger. I have searched for sled testing on seats and I have yet to see any good data on the strength of the lateral restraint. I don't know if NASCAR has a spec minimum for lateral G force. However, looking at the aluminum seat fabrication, a steel cage might possibly be stronger. Without data who knows?
at the June El M race I spent a lot of time talking to various suppliers, and techies about my new Lakester--They seemed to be pointing me toward a 9 point harness with a "hans type" for helment control Seems to me like a 9 point "would deal" with nearly anything that 3.a.3 extension "could deal" with.
Gentry: It seems to me a cage structure modeled after a "pro stock" system would be more appropriate for a gas coupe than a funny car. They seem to have pretty good side protection when we see the at the drags. You can always add the lateral movement clearances with the proper padding. Funny car type cages seem to fit center steer cars a lot better....Good luck
This is what we had in the car last year. As a new car we wern't sure what would pass so we thought we would go with what we knew was safe(http://www.flickr.com/photos/martys_pictures/5858588584/in/photostream)
I don't know if this will post here but this is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/martys_pictures/5858588584/in/photostream
Thanks for the link, Marty. I'm not sure but it looks like you have both systems in there. The aluminum inside the top of the cage looks like the seat's head restraint and the cage certainly looks like it is full containmnet? Do you have trouble getting in or out?
Quote from: Saltfever on June 21, 2011, 11:10:03 PM
Thanks for the link, Marty. I'm not sure but it looks like you have both systems in there. The aluminum inside the top of the cage looks like the seat's head restraint and the cage certainly looks like it is full containmnet? Do you have trouble getting in or out?
Ditto that. What is your review of running both? I'm pretty close to buying my seat and building the cage around it, trying to make the call on this now.
Quote from: FoundSoul on August 24, 2011, 09:09:14 AM
Quote from: Saltfever on June 21, 2011, 11:10:03 PM
Thanks for the link, Marty. I'm not sure but it looks like you have both systems in there. The aluminum inside the top of the cage looks like the seat's head restraint and the cage certainly looks like it is full containmnet? Do you have trouble getting in or out?
Ditto that. What is your review of running both? I'm pretty close to buying my seat and building the cage around it, trying to make the call on this now.
Our cage on the 222 car is similar but front of cage is not as far foward but with lateral helmet rule we had to extend
padding 11/2'' foward of bar, we also have an x brace at door which we have to lift leg over bar. I had this car built the safest way I knew of using an Alston pro-stock complete body over chassis designed by structural engineers.The chassis comes frow Alston tack welded together and Pro-Chassis builder of car had a certified aircraft welder tig weld it. With new Hans and head restraint rules I can hardly get in but getting out is a bit easier.
If I were building it with new rules I would have moved seat and cage back further and extended petals and steering wheel to leave more room to get out. I definitely like the added safety of the funny car cage.
JL222
We are currently having a funny car cage installed with a full containment seat in a '91 Camaro. It's tight but lots of protection. I can post pics as the work progresses.
Has anyone seen the problem with the bar coming from the funny car cage to bottom frame rail on pg 25
fig 1?
JL222
Quote from: Captthundarr on August 24, 2011, 10:58:58 AM
We are currently having a funny car cage installed with a full containment seat in a '91 Camaro. It's tight but lots of protection. I can post pics as the work progresses.
Here is a Kirkey full containment with a funny car cage. It is a Gen II Camaro.
(http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/douggriffith/cage3.jpg)
(http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/douggriffith/cage4.jpg)
I don't see any reason why that would not meet an inspetors expectations..JD
John,
That bar was put there by SFI. It is their drawing.
DW
The bottom of the front hoop at the intersection with the "down tube" at the door looks like a poor design to me. Even though it is triangulated, the downward force of a roof first impact seems like it leaves that joint with a pretty high stress load.
At the very least I would add a vertical brace at that point............. it sure can't hurt.......
I also don't understand the curved joint brace at the front of the door entry.
I would be the first to admit that I am not qualified to argue with SFI, but they are, afterall, the same organization that now certifies two different rated seat belt's............... I guess they figure that one is to be half-safe, and the other for really wanting to save your a-s...............
Bob
Gussets? pg25
QuoteI also don't understand the curved joint brace at the front of the door entry.
I suspect it is to accomplish one of two objectives, it is to provide some give in the joint in case the main tube weld to the halo bar fails, the two curved gusset bars would have some give in them to use up energy in deformation.
More likely I think it is to avoid a long acute angle where the gusset tube joins the halo bar, giving more access for a more reliable weld on the inside of the gusset tube.
By approaching the upper halo tube more at right angles at the joint the heat affected zone of the weld is smaller as well. If that were a very acute angle joint there would be difficulty both making a sound weld on the inside of the acute angle and visually inspecting that weld. If it were a cold weld the whole tube could just unzip the weld in an impact.
That is just my SWAG on why that feature exists. It would be interesting to get an engineer familiar with the analysis of the design to comment.
Hotrod, I am not arguing with you, but it seems that the "acute" inside angle would have the thickest metal at the joint, and the heel would be the thinest and therefore weakest part of the joint.............. just my opinion, obviously................ Bob
Bob, the curved "gussett" at the top of the A pillar looks like somebody gettting cute and artistic. I may be new to LSR but have been around many cages. Enjoyed the brief meeting at the Salt Talks!
It could also serve double duty as a tubular gusset and a grab handle so the driver can have a place to grab on for exit.
Just my thoughts.
Charles
Quote from: jl222 on August 24, 2011, 11:07:38 AM
Has anyone seen the problem with the bar coming from the funny car cage to bottom frame rail on pg 25
fig 1?
JL222
I should have said problems [ bob's problems are why I'm waiting to now to point this out] the problem I was trying to point out was the bottom right side tube on funny car cage crossing over to left bottom frame rail [were can one's
legs go? Also cross bar behind seat should be higher to attach seat belts and tube across front of chassis should connect at same point as on left our bellhousing will not clear.
I pity anyone trying to build a cage to these S.C.T.A. [in rule book] drawings and they should be inproved for next year and I'm sure they will be after SCTA becoming aware of short comings
JL222
I just noticed in the second picture a vertical from the "x" intersection at mid-door which drops to I believe the main frame rail. I think that would take the place of my suggested vertical brace.
I am not if favor of the "pro stock/pro mod inner hoop kickback as it drops over the trans tunnel.
Every time I look at those, I think a good seat and a 12 or 14 point cage should be stronger.
Quote from: Cajun Kid on August 24, 2011, 07:19:03 PM
It could also serve double duty as a tubular gusset and a grab handle so the driver can have a place to grab on for exit.
Just my thoughts.
Charles
I thought that as well Charles. Watched Nexussian rig up something similar to get out of the berkley
" I pity anyone trying to build a cage to these S.C.T.A. (SFI) [in rule book] drawings ..."
John,
Maybe you should contact SFI and have them change their cage specs. Carl Olsen would be a good start.
DW
Quote from: dw230 on August 25, 2011, 01:25:40 PM
" I pity anyone trying to build a cage to these S.C.T.A. (SFI) [in rule book] drawings ..."
John,
Maybe you should contact SFI and have them change their cage specs. Carl Olsen would be a good start.
DW
Well someone should, and ask for structural engineering and the name of the guy [ maybe secretary] that drew them.
JL222
Boy...... I'm glad I have a center steer roadster...Seems like ALL the coupe guys can pick on everything............. :cheers:
Quote from: jimmy six on August 25, 2011, 09:16:56 PM
Boy...... I'm glad I have a center steer roadster...Seems like ALL the coupe guys can pick on everything............. :cheers:
Hope you don't fall out the bottom. FIG 4B :cheers:
JL222
4A is a generic roadster cage. I know this because it is written right below the picture.
DW