Motorcycle "Records" - Really??

[salt27]

Analysis:
fuel – faster than gas
blown – faster than unblown
partial streamlined – faster than unstreamlined
streamliner – faster than partial streamlined
bigger cc – faster than smaller cc
sidecar – well . . . sidecar. Numbers way out of proportion to the real world.
pushrod/vintage – because pushrod/vintage

A quick look through the records indicates that theory and reality are not the same no matter if it's a bike or car.

Some classes have had more development than others and some engines are better suited for this than others despite their size.

All said and done, the majority of us are trying to go faster year after year.

The horse is dead, Don

[Stan Back]

"NO similar 'cherry-picking' "facts" about
cars establishing open records are presented...mmmmm....why's that ?"

Because, if someone does the data, there are a whole lot less open car records.

[joea]

octane..etal...data ARE FACTUAL points...DOES speak volumes ...opinions do as well...and they
are not the same....

opinions about the data...seems to be the rub...

Dean indeed made alot of good points....both in presenting factual data regarding classes
and records...ie "data points"...and in his analysis...

im leaving the interpretation of what is "good" to all of us to decide...

[Kansas Bad Man]

We came to Speedweek for what we thought would be a slam dunk. Running on a 25 year old 225 record. Vincent vs Busa. No problem, right? Wrong!! Same body we ran 235+, 40hp more, 30lbs more torque. Wet salt, other minor gremlins and no record . I did have fun! We will try again next year. That is Bonneville.

Vincent against Busa.  If the Vincent and the Busa went through tech on the same day, Speedweek 2013, the two motorcycles wouldn't be in the same class.  Different classes make things fair.  You certainly wouldn't run a vintage push rod motorcycle, four speed, which is over sixty years old, against a modern day cammy, short stroke six speed.  I'm seventy five years old and been in motorcycle racing for some sixty years.  Ever since I can remember it's been the classes that made things fair and competitive.  For instance a 30 1/2 cu.in. Manx Norton overhead cam would run against a 45 cu.in. Indian Scout.  Less breathing, bigger inches made it competitive and fair.  For the Busa to run against a Vincent in a class at Bonneville doesn't seem fair.  One thing for sure, this isn't the only thing that puts a bee in my bonnet when it comes to classification.  Push rod length per stroke requirement, and more.  I don't know who dreams up some of this crap.

                                  Max

[Nortonist 592]

interpretation of what is "good"

Seems that "good" is NOT running on an open record.  For doing so will deem you a "cherry picker".  Which in turn will earn disrespect from your fellow racers and possibly lead to questions about your manliness and parents marriage status.

What strikes me as hilarious is the fact that at some point in time EVERY record was open.  So I can only conclude that the SCTA, FIM, FIA, AMA, ECTA etc. were founded by a bunch of cherry pickers.

So lets raise our glasses to Gaston de Chasseloup-Laubat, who on Dec. 18, 1898, became the first (and patron saint to all) cherry picker.  Here's to ol' Gassy.

[grumm441]

(edit . . . ) If you are a one and done, challenged an open record and won... then you are not a Bonneville racer... you are just one of the many visitors the flats get every year, you paid to go down the course.   You can brag on your record until someone else runs on it and takes it.  I do not say this to make your record less important, I say it because as most of us know, LSR is a lifestyle, that is what Bonneville racers do, we go back and race.

Nicely said, Stainless. I have been trying to find those words for years. You couldn't have defined it any better!

Nice sentiment, however did any one notice the Manxman teams A/BF 500 and A/BF 500 records from last year
they ran 188.730 and 203.373 on an 168 record. So they toured in, put 20 on the soft gas record and 35 on soft the fuel record.
And toured on home red hat in hand
Based on the logic of this thread, every bike over 500 should now have a 203.373 minimum

octane..etal...data ARE FACTUAL points...DOES speak volumes ...opinions do as well...and they
are not the same....

opinions about the data...seems to be the rub...

Dean indeed made alot of good points....both in presenting factual data regarding classes
and records...ie "data points"...and in his analysis...

im leaving the interpretation of what is "good" to all of us to decide...

That's nice, but we are only seeing half the data

"NO similar 'cherry-picking' "facts" about
cars establishing open records are presented...mmmmm....why's that ?"

Because, if someone does the data, there are a whole lot less open car records.

But until we see the car data, this is in fact, just speculation.

G

[Stan Back]

My speculation leads to at least over 280 open bike records in the 2013 Rule Book.  Better hurry, they're going fast!

[grumm441]

Still speculation just the same

Bikes have too few wheels for me to go fast on
I'm happy to look at them in tech an certify records, open or otherwise
But riding fast is for some one braver than me
I'll stick with the lakester thanks
G

[Dean Los Angeles]

Pot stirrer reporting for duty.

My son just had a baby - first grandchild. I thought it might be more important to hop on a plane then stick around here.

Wobbly, you think that was difficult??? We upped the 100cc APS-BF with a 1967 Yamaha 3 speed trail bike motor
from 49mph set in 2008 to 91mph and out the back door at 99+.  Can't wait for someone to break that one.

Um . . . if Darrold Cummings managed 106 without the blower and on gas then . . .

The fastest 1000cc record is 251 in APS-BF. Makes Burt Munro's record of 183 in a fuel streamliner soft. Of course almost 50 years on the books.
On the other hand the 1000cc I-BGS record is 315. You have to look at the car records too to see who is making horsepower.

For the Busa to run against a Vincent in a class at Bonneville doesn't seem fair.

Fair? Is that what racing is about? Racing is about running faster than anyone else WITHOUT QUALIFICATION.

I realize the thrill of going to Bonneville is vastly improved if you go home with your name in the record books.
Ok, in your class you were competitive.
But you have to realize there are some real genius people running on far faster records.
I'll repeat what I said earlier. Every record set this year had a faster record on the books, in what should have been a slower class.
Not counting pushrod/vintage/side car that run in their own world.

I don't really care that you ran on an open record. You cherry picked it, didn't you?

Nice sentiment, however did any one notice the Manxman teams A/BF 500 and A/BF 500 records from last year
they ran 188.730 and 203.373 on an 168 record. So they toured in, put 20 on the soft gas record and 35 on soft the fuel record.
And toured on home red hat in hand
Based on the logic of this thread, every bike over 500 should now have a 203.373 minimum

UM . . . No, they ran on a 183 and 175 record in the APS class. And a very nice record it was. 203 on a 500 cc is damn competitive. And that's the point.

If you look at the record book Scott Guthrie holds an amazing number of records, and Oh Boy are they competitive. This year Team Guthrie Racing upped a blown 2000cc 170 record to 215. Sounds good until you look at the 252 unblown record.

The Costella name has some ungodly fast records attached to it. This year they stuck a wheel-on-a-stick to their 650 streamliner and ran 197 on an open record instead of running against the 230 streamliner record.

I have been running a spread sheet for ten years. My comparison is against the fastest overall records and how other records compare to see who is REALLY fast. No opinion necessary. Just numbers. Numbers like fuel is 6.0 mph faster than gas in the A class. 8.9 mph faster in the APS class. Partial streamlining is 25.2 mph faster in gas and 21.0 mph faster in fuel. Streamlining is faster than partial streamlining by 32.2 mph on gas and 34.3 mph on fuel. Yea numbers!

[grumm441]

Pot stirrer reporting for duty.

My son just had a baby - first grandchild. I thought it might be more important to hop on a plane then stick around here.

Nice sentiment, however did any one notice the Manxman teams A/BF 500 and A/BF 500 records from last year
they ran 188.730 and 203.373 on an 168 record. So they toured in, put 20 on the soft gas record and 35 on soft the fuel record.
And toured on home red hat in hand
Based on the logic of this thread, every bike over 500 should now have a 203.373 minimum

UM . . . No, they ran on a 183 and 175 record in the APS class. And a very nice record it was. 203 on a 500 cc is damn competitive. And that's the point.

I should have took more time to look for my glasses and less time to be outraged
The Manx Guys were APS/BG and APS/BF

And congratulations on being a Granadad, some things are more important than LSR
G

[8pack]

I don't consider myself a cherry-picker. I built the bike I always wanted to build a 2 engine turbocharged naked pushrod bike. It just so happens nobody else has the same desire. I did set a record while I was licensing up. I decided to do it that way so I could get the engines certified and have the rest of the time to go fast. Just so happened that my plan had a faul in it..... I hit a rut around 200mph (roughly 25mph over my record) and crashed Will I be back? YES  Does the bike have more in it? YES  Would it be cool if somebody else was running against me? YES.

[Nortonist 592]

I'd like to buy a vowel.

[Dakin Engineering]

Dean,
Congrads on the grandbaby.
The rest of us are bustin' Acura to do it again.
(not the grandbaby)

Sorry if a few extra lines in the record book makes it too heavy.

Sam

[SaltPeter]

I can't see why any given Class has any performance based relationship to any other Class in Land Speed Racing.

Why does a Gas Record have to be slower than a Fuel Record they are totally separate Classes.

As for as I can tell any of us only compete within our chosen Class, it's not like Index Based Drag Racing Classes that race against each other.

Within a Class there maybe issues of Performance differences, this is a different issue.

Eventually most Classes will reach a peak Speed and the Record will be increased by smaller margins, until a Tech breakthrough occurs and the Record goes to a new level.

As an aside and I run a 250cc, there were two speeds recorded that I found in the results at Speedweek that has me scratching my head 

3419B    250CC     M-BG       Scott Guthrie Racing    206.125    212.339    220.295    210.383    214.368    220.295
3414B    250CC     A-BG       Scott Guthrie Racing    187.965    192.682    194.979    191.003    192.247    194.979

Can anyone enlighten me what exactly these Bikes/Engines are?

Pete

[octane]

I don't really care that you ran on an open record. You cherry picked it, didn't you?

No.




Try to make an effort and actually read what people here write.
You can start with my reply to you on page 4.

If you REALLY insist on degrading your fellow-racers with disparaging condescending judgements
concerning their motivation for racing, please do it on a qualified basis.
I could be wrong , but I am quite sure that I know better what goes on i my head
than you do.


This is so silly and downright nasty.
UNlike EVERYthing else I have experienced in this otherwise absolutely
fantastic community.