Main Battery Disconnect switch location?

[Carl Johansson]

Jack,
What part of "i put it on the rear deck of the car -  mounted it through the antenna hole" don't you understand?.  I came here asking about how the rule as written was being interpreted.  You and several others gave misleading information on the rule. I was just thanking Dan for giving the real skinny on the rule!

Not only did you give me bad info on the rule info, you also gave a completely asinine reason for your justification of putting it on the rear of the car.  I pointed out that you were completely Ass Backwards in your reasoning -  but you seem to have chosen to ignore that little piece of information.

Others gave reasonable reasons why the put it outside the car.  I considered all of the information presented -  and made a choice that I think is in my best interest for my safety. The battery cable that will remain hot is about 18 inches long - (Summner -  thanks for that insight) and the battery is switched from the rear of the car as well as a keyed switch inside -  thanks guys! 

It's clear that I had read the rule and interpreted it correctly Jack -  why do you think I need to re-read it?  perhaps it is you who needs to reread it!.  Would you like me to send a copy of the rule book to you?

Jack. I come here looking for advise and opinions.  I take each and every suggestion seriously.  Sometimes there is a difference of opinion -  in that case -  I look for people to provide me the reasoning behind their suggestion.  It is here where you have failed my criteria -  your reasoning often does not support your pontification.  Sometimes your suggestions are correct -  but with bad logic supporting your ideas, I am not willing to buy off on them until I see someone actually logically support the idea.

I listen to alot of people with alot of experience here in the forum Jack -  but it seems as if you think I ought to blindly follow everything you opine about -  without requiring evidence to support your spewing!  Sorry -  i don't work that way.  If you want me to listen to you -  all I require is a little logical support for your ideas.

Now if you would excuse me -  I have a car to finish building.

BTW Jack -  if you choose to stop answering me - that's your prerogative,  if you wish to continue answering me - that's great -  all I ask is a little reason to be applied -  in a way I can read and understand!

Carl Johansson

That was my original question -  looks like I read the rule right -  but was beat down by the all knowing, all wanna be powerfull jacked up wizard.

Carl Johansson

You need to reread the rule and your question and apply the common sense answers from some very experienced people that want to see the best for you.
If that is what you call beating you down, then perhaps you should not bother to ask because soon they will not bother to answer you.

Your Up
[/quote]

[JackD]

SWELL

[desotoman]

The rule is worded that a master battery cutoff must be installed, nothing about external. The switch location must be marked as well as the off position marked.

That is all, nothing more.

DW

With all due respect this rule was not thought out completely. Someone decided it was necessary to install kill switches in the cars. (Good thing) But failed to put in a location the switch or activator must be located at, instead putting the word visible in the wording. (Bad thing)

At both Bonneville and El Mirage we have volunteers working the Patrols, who would be the first people to get to the driver of the car if an accident were to happen. Most of these Patrols are not familiar with every car going down the track, in fact if they are familiar with more than their own and friends I would be surprised.

Worst case scenario with the current rule. I am on patrol and a car I am not familiar with goes upside down in front of me. When I get to the car there is smoke everywhere and I am searching for the cutoff switch. Not being familiar with the car, and the smoke being heavy I cannot find the switch or see the visible writing identifying where it is. In this case it may take minutes for the switch to be located. Especially if it is located on the dash of said vehicle.

Same scenario but the rule now says battery cutoff switch must be at the rear of the vehicle clearly visible and marked accordingly. Now even though I cannot see the switch, I know it is located somewhere on the rear of the vehicle. I can hold my breath and search for it by feel. Hopefully being able to find it.

Also with the switch being located in a certain location this can be discussed at the Patrol meeting. The person conducting the Patrol meeting would be able to say something like "When you get to a car that is in trouble remember the battery cutoff switch is located at the rear of the vehicle."

I will submit a rule change request, but I feel this is important enough, that something should be done now, and not at the end of the year.

Tom G.

[Carl Johansson]

I agree with you to an extent Desoto man.  But I have some reservations -
  1st of all it is not a kill switch -  it only cuts off the flow of electricity from the battery -it interrupts the circuit.  if I'm on fire -  please put out the fire first. Is there a reason you would be looking for the switch to turn off the battery instead of putting out the fire and trying to get the driver out?

2nd.  the switch, as Sumner pointed out, still leaves a hot cable from the battery to the switch.  So if your battery is in front -  and your switch in the rear -  you have 15 feet of hot cable flapping around!  if on the other hand the switch was mounted as close to the battery as possible you would have lots less hot cable.

In my case -  to route the battery disconnect on the rear of the car -  it would entail running a hot cable over, under, or around the gas tank -  so I would have a hot cable arcing by the fuel tank -  I'm not so sure thats a great idea!

So while I bitch about the rule -  as i look at it now -  after having thought about all of this stuff -  I'm not sure standardizing the location would be the safest option available.

sometimes it helps if we think about the car as the safety system -  with all of the parts playing an integral role -  but they must play together -  instead of getting in each others way!

Carl Johansson
s

With all due respect this rule was not thought out completely. Someone decided it was necessary to install kill switches in the cars. (Good thing) But failed to put in a location the switch or activator must be located at, instead putting the word visible in the wording. (Bad thing)

At both Bonneville and El Mirage we have volunteers working the Patrols, who would be the first people to get to the driver of the car if an accident were to happen. Most of these Patrols are not familiar with every car going down the track, in fact if they are familiar with more than their own and friends I would be surprised.

Worst case scenario with the current rule. I am on patrol and a car I am not familiar with goes upside down in front of me. When I get to the car there is smoke everywhere and I am searching for the cutoff switch. Not being familiar with the car, and the smoke being heavy I cannot find the switch or see the visible writing identifying where it is. In this case it may take minutes for the switch to be located. Especially if it is located on the dash of said vehicle.

Same scenario but the rule now says battery cutoff switch must be at the rear of the vehicle clearly visible and marked accordingly. Now even though I cannot see the switch, I know it is located somewhere on the rear of the vehicle. I can hold my breath and search for it by feel. Hopefully being able to find it.

Also with the switch being located in a certain location this can be discussed at the Patrol meeting. The person conducting the Patrol meeting would be able to say something like "When you get to a car that is in trouble remember the battery cutoff switch is located at the rear of the vehicle."

I will submit a rule change request, but I feel this is important enough, that something should be done now, and not at the end of the year.

Tom G.

[tortoise]

if I'm on fire -  please put out the fire first. Is there a reason you would be looking for the switch to turn off the battery instead of putting out the fire and trying to get the driver out?

The car being on fire is not the only emergency condition encountered after a crash. The engine might be running with driveline shit thrashing about.

[RichFox]

A friend of mine was working on his Corvair and had the fuel line disconnected. Somehow he shorted the solenoid, and cranked the motor. The fuel pump squirted gas on the arcing and started a fire. The engine kept spinning, the gas kept flowing. To bad he didn't have a shut-off switch. Getting back to your being upside down, out cold, headers smashed up against your starter solenoid, electric fuel pump on, gas running down out of your intake. Wont you want a electric shut off somewhere that people will know to look and be easily able to access?

[Carl Johansson]

if I'm on fire -  please put out the fire first. Is there a reason you would be looking for the switch to turn off the battery instead of putting out the fire and trying to get the driver out?

The car being on fire is not the only emergency condition encountered after a crash. The engine might be running with driveline shit thrashing about.

It's an electrical cut off switch not a kill switch.  If you have an alt or generator -  the car will continue to run after you turn off the switch!
Carl Johansson

[Carl Johansson]

A friend of mine was working on his Corvair and had the fuel line disconnected. Somehow he shorted the solenoid, and cranked the motor. The fuel pump squirted gas on the arcing and started a fire. The engine kept spinning, the gas kept flowing. To bad he didn't have a shut-off switch. Getting back to your being upside down, out cold, headers smashed up against your starter solenoid, electric fuel pump on, gas running down out of your intake. Wont you want a electric shut off somewhere that people will know to look and be easily able to access?

Shutoff as per our rules would not have helped your buddy -  it is not a kill switch it simply disconnects the current from the battery to the car.

In my case I would be more concerned about the cable running from the battery to the shutoff switch arcing as it passes by the fuel tank -  if I mounted it in the rear -  I have it on the rear deck -  so I only have 18 inches of hot wire (in my imagination!) and it's not by the fuel tank!
I'm not debating the need for a master cut off -  I'm all for it -  I'm saying that there are lots to consider before we mandate a specific location for all cars!  different configurations of electrical, fuel; cells, engine placement , battery placement   all need to be considered when you look to mount that switch!

Carl Johansson

[RichFox]

Shut-off would have helped Norm a lot! If he could have cut the electricity flow to the starter, the engine would have stopped spinning, the fuel pump would have stopped squirting, and the fire would have gone out. As it was he could not get it under control.

[JackD]

As indicated, the battery may be located anywhere if it is securely fastened and isolated from the operator.
The battery cable should be as short as possible and the electrical disconnect should be as close to the battery as possible.
The operation may be remote and for the multiple reasons related to rescue, it should be in a predictable / easily accessible  location.
Does anybody think the fire / rescue crew can memorize the various locations the electrical source might be located if not specified ?
All of that is in addition to the required switches that are available to a conscious driver without impediment.
Can we invent a new word like "WRECKY" and use some old ones like "READ" ?

[desotoman]

Calm down, Calm down, Calm down,
Take a deep breath, relax.

I think we are getting caught up in the "wording" of the rule. My post does not say the actual battery cut off device should be on the rear of the car. It does not need to be. But something that activates it (remote switch type device) should be.

For Example: If you want to have your battery located next to your starter and you have a front motored car, put an electrical operated disconnect switch (electric solenoid) next to your battery. Then put a inline fuse off of the battery and just run a wire (14 gage) to the rear of the car and mount a toggle switch. Now you have a battery cutoff switch at the rear of the car. If you want one mounted on your dash also just series the connection (14 gage wire) and either will cutoff the battery. Pretty simple really and does not cost much money, as I recall in one of Sumners posts he paid $16 for the solenoid, a toggle switch will run you about $5 and 20' of 14 gage wire another $5 inline fuse holder $2.

If I ran a car with an alternator (which I don't) I would also take the precausions to put an electrical disconnect switch on the output wire of it, hooked up in parallel with the battery disconect switch.

Just remember the old saying "Coulda, woulda, shoulda". The butt you save may be your own or worse your best friend, since you would have to live with it for the rest of your life.

Tom G.

[Stainless1]

OK kids, I've said it before (probably other threads) and I may just say it about 500 more times.
excuse my shouting... this time
BUILD IT LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!!! BECAUSE IT DOES!!

No one can write a rule to guarantee no one will ever get hurt landspeed racing.  We have a lot of rules based on someone already getting hurt or worse, killed in an accident.  OK some of the rules are poorly worded, open to what they really mean, but the bottom line is it is your butt that is on the line when you race, not mine, not Dan's, not Jack, Rich's, Kent's or anyone else.  This is not aimed at you Carl, this is to everyone that races for landspeed records.

When the rule was written, many of us agonized over what, where, how and many of us talked about a location, the consensus was the rear of the car, why, because that was the way the NHRA did it.  Very few cars will stop on their tail.

If you don't make it a master cutoff, you may be complying with the rule, to disconnect the battery, but I will assure you the intent is to shut everything on the car down.  Running a Mag? Battery does not do anything but run the recorder and so gages, wire the cutoff on a solenoid that closes the ground when battery power is on, nobody cares how you do it, just that you do it.

Stainless "I'd build it like my life depends on it" Steele
Old guy, still wanting to get a lot older... 

[Sumner]

......It's an electrical cut off switch not a kill switch.  If you have an alt or generator -  the car will continue to run after you turn off the switch!
Carl Johansson

Not if you put a simple relay in the circuit from the alternator that opens when there is no power to it (main disconnect turned off).

I looked back in my rule books and the current rule with the current writing became effective on 12-31-2000, so it has been there a while.  

I think everyone sees so many cars with the battery disconnect on the back of them they just assume it has to be there and I agree the wording of the rule probably should be looked at and changed so there is a common place that a safety worker would look for the switch.

Also I realize a battery is heavy and you might not want it at the tail of the car, which will move the CG backwards, but in this case to keep the hot wire as short as possible it probably should be located there.

c ya,

Sum

[JackD]

Are you guys a gang ?

[desotoman]

For those of you that are not familiar with a remote battery disconnect here is an example of one that is available. I just did a google search and came up with this one.
Tom G.


Click on attachment below that says PDF file and remote will come up.