What would you imagine George Poteet or Bobby Moore spent on building their liners?.
If someone knows, even better. :lol:
N+$$$
Those are easy, as is Marlo's
All were $3 :roll:
Anyone can build a successful car for LSR, and it will cost 0 more than you think and budget for the task...
Just set your budget, then add the 0 :-o
:cheers:
More than this?.
$um have $pent more. The more you have the more you can $pend :-D
What did the Space Shuttle cost?? :roll:
I'm building a budget liner, I can't afford a liner budget.
Sid.
Quote from: tauruck on February 02, 2014, 03:32:30 AM
What would you imagine George Poteet or Bobby Moore spent on building their liners?.
If someone knows, even better. :lol:
I was always told if I had to ask I could not afford it. :-o All the previous answers all have merit. :-)
A rule I developed that has worked for me on cars, boats, etc. I have built, is to sit down and figure all costs involved, parts, farmed out labor, etc and be realistic on prices. Then double the parts and labor, and it comes out pretty close. At least for me it has worked, but I am very budget conscious.
Tom G.
I asked because I heard what I thought was BS.
Seems my source was being conservative. :-D
I wasn't setting a target or anything.
Well ya got a target to stay below :roll: Hopefully you won't need Pierre's help to stay under the number :-D
:cheers:
Mike,
It doesn't matter. You have never seen a U-Haul behind a hearse. If you give the undertaker a bad check, you came out just right.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
If your thorough you can calculate the cost to build it. are you a fabricator? Engine Program? Trans and full driveline? Trailer, support vehicles, spares. After carefully figuring all that multiply it by 2 and you,ll be close. Oh, then think about running it. Whole other ball game. Our budget was well into 6 figures for Speedweek. Well into :-o
Quote from: tauruck on February 02, 2014, 01:37:11 PM
I asked because I heard what I thought was BS.
Seems my source was being conservative. :-D
I wasn't setting a target or anything.
I've never given it a thought. Mainly because what I have in my sidecar wouldn't cover the cost of the lugnuts for Poteet and Main. I saw a program a few years back about liners. One was still in the garage and close to finished (I think). When asked about the cost the reply was "I'm about $350,000 into it so far." So if you got it, spend it. If not, do what you can with what you got.
The Bloodhound project appears to me to be the most "over the top" budget of ANY race vehicle I've ever known about. I assume it"s not "privately" funded?
Not even my friends believe me when I say how much we spent building our ultra basic bellytank. When I tell strangers who ask that they'll want at least 50 grand they either think I'm pulling their chain,or an idiot. We built ours in a garage with primitive tools and spent money earned in wages. If you own a business and have employees the apparent cost may be low,but the inferred cost will be substantial.
Personally I'd be surprised if any of those top end liners cost less than a half a mil'.
Waaaaaay outa my league....
Edit: ...and I bet some have cost three,four or five times that,to build.
LSR budgets are real simple to figure out.
B x (g/100)=A
B=money saved, aka your budget
G=goal in mph
A=actual cost
So, say you have $12k budgeted with a 175 mph goal. That would be $12,000 x 1.75 = $21000 and probably still a few mph short
I'm not building a liner. Just a little old competition coupe. From the beginning my budget was, whatever it takes to get it done and done right. The definition of "right" has changed through out the build, nonetheless I decided long ago that my vision won't be compromised due to lack of funds. The time frame may get stretched out a bit, but it will be the way I want it to be when the time comes to put the wheels on the salt.
Some guys have a bunch of money and no time. Some have no money, and nothing but time. I have been blessed with not much of either.
My project has entered it's second year. That's a long time for a guy that could build two street cars in a years time. But this means so much more to me than a street car.
Will it get done this year... Maybe. But I can promise this, it will get done. Budget to me is not only money invested, it's time as well. Not only time spent actually working on the car, but the long sleepless night trying to come up with solutons to problems that are inherent with designing something from scratch. The hours spent on the phone tracking down obsolete parts. It's such a cliche' but it is most definitely the blood, sweat and tears that go into it.
Before we turn someone away I think we need to mention you can race on the salt with somewhat limited funds. The expenses will be based on what you are trying to achieve. Sure over say 250 mph and the cost starts to really escalate in most classes but not all. The real cost is if you are going after a record then the engine costs can get very high as you need to have a better engine than the current record holder and finding those last couple HP can get real expensive. Still there are some soft records out there if that is all you are interested in.
If your goals are more personal and say like a lot of people your goal is to run over 200 and you do "all" your work on the car yourself and/or have friends that will help you then it is possible to build a 200+ mph car for under $15,000 and maybe even less than $10,000 if you already have some of the parts like the car to start with and a decent engine.
Here is how to do that....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/hooley-2004.html
.... work your a$$ off, have friends that work their a$$'s off, use what you have and lots of swap meet stuff.
I decided on a lakester since it is mainly a lot of work and you don't even have to buy a body :-). The main expense if you want to run over 200 with one (no record) is the tires and safety equipment.
Even a 400 mph car could be built for less than 100K if there again you did it all. One disservice the magazines have done in the last 20+ years is their format has changed from showing you how to do something yourself to showing you how a 'shop' does it and that maybe you should just leave it to them. They have to support their advertisers first :cry:,
Sum
It's really simpler than any equation would lead one to believe.
There's a simple "go/no go" gauge in your kitchen.
If you still have food in your refrigerator, you are under budget.
If you have to pawn your refrigerator, you are over budget.
I saw 5 models that Ron Main had built for the Main & Poteet liner. They were wind tunnel tested prior to the final shape being chosen.
The rest of us would build the full size body by making a wooden buck, cover it in foam and shape it. Fiberglass female mold taken to make the actual parts.
Main & Poteet had a 3D drawing post processed into a CNC program and had a 5 axis mill cut the mold. Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites factory (They are building SpaceShipOne.) built the bodies.
When you are talking about that level budget or the lowest level liner budget don't forget all of the peripheral items that go with it. The pop-up shade and the tarps, as many spare parts as you can afford, motel and food, tools, tools, tools . . .
MM, don't forget that beer needs to be figured in there somewhere as well. :cheers:
I started out with NOTHING and I've still got MOST of it left!!!! :-D
Chris, I liked your budget calculator best of all. :cheers: :cheers:
.... and when it is finally finished you can now head for Speedweek. For me this takes: $1500 for fuel
$1000 for each room (two beds each)
$400 to $600 for entry
$1000 to feed crew and myself
$500 to help pay for crews gas
$500 for blown trailer tires on trip
.... and the really good news is that this doesn't include one dime for the race car itself, no parts, fuel, tires (my spin at 2012 World Finals ate $1600 worth of M/T tires), but then again, I have VISA for a sponsor (since 1998 and still unpaid in full). One Run, out.................
4
Bob I sleep better if I don't add it all up :-D
JL222
Quote from: Milwaukee Midget on February 03, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
It's really simpler than any equation would lead one to believe.
There's a simple "go/no go" gauge in your kitchen.
If you still have food in your refrigerator, you are under budget.
If you have to pawn your refrigerator, you are over budget.
Ok, your calculator wins! Love this one
Quote from: Bob Drury on February 03, 2014, 09:34:56 AM
.... $1500 for fuel
.....$1000 for each room (two beds each)
.....$400 to $600 for entry
.....$1000 to feed crew and myself
.....$500 to help pay for crews gas...
You know I often see the above stated and actually can't figure it out. None of our crew would think about asking Hooley to help with our gas, pay our rooms or food. I mean he has spent thousands so that we can live the experience and he is a working guy that is now retired so the money doesn't come easy for him.
Whoever drives out with him helps him with gas. We often pick up the bill at the fuel truck. He gives us T-shirts and I personally feel guilty not paying for them. Ruth and I helped out substantially this past year, but I got to drive the car and he ended up not getting to drive it. Still even though Ruth and I put in a fair amount it nowhere matched what he put into the car just this last year and that doesn't count the years before.
Yes the whole deal is expensive, but you can have memories that 99.9999% of the population will never have. Put a price on that :-D,
Sum
So that's why Hooley gave me that "Lucky" horseshoe.
He has you guys feeling sorry for him while he is betting on the ponies, and he is not even bribing you!
My guys are all Union labor and have been known to lock me in the Little Green Chapel if demands are not met!
The only thing going in my favor is the continuing Visa Sponsorship (along with M.C., Discover, Sears, a couple of Credit Unions, and any other scam I can dream up).
I wouldn't want it any other way....................... One Run
Jeez Bob, you're scaring them off!! Use your inside voice. :-D
Sid.
I'm with you Sum. Been crewing with Sparky since 07. Can't put a $number on hearing he just became the 1st unblown gas lakester over 300. But we all split the room.
Hooley likes the ponies??
That's my next thing!. Yup, going to give them a try. :evil:
Quote from: tauruck on February 03, 2014, 05:31:44 PM
Hooley likes the ponies??
Just so a rumor doesn't get started........no he doesn't.....never even saw him put a quarter in one of the 'one arm bandits' there :-D. Of course I guess we are all gamblers being racers and there is no sure thing,
Sum
I could have gone back to college and earned a doctorate in engineering for less time, money, and effort than it is taking to get my little pile past 150, and it is not nearly as expensive as a liner.
Quote from: wobblywalrus on February 03, 2014, 06:26:52 PM
I could have gone back to college and earned a doctorate in engineering for less time, money, and effort than it is taking to get my little pile past 150, and it is not nearly as expensive as a liner.
And what fun would that have been? :-D
I'm not taking anything away from the discipline when I say there are likely a few things you've learned that you'd have never learned in a classroom.
(This may be a wee bit off topic) Have been married for 36 years, and have never lied to my wife. I am building a smelly old C4 Vette, (not a Liner) Have been collecting bits over a no. of years, while road racing/tarmac rallying vettes- I have never added up what it has cost, or what I have spent on bits for "Saltvette" When the inevitable question comes, I can honestly say "I don't know love, I've never bothered to add it up!"
Denis
Sage advice Dennis, why keep receipts? It's the only way to honestly say " I don't know".....
I grew up in a PONY family. Owners, trainers, bookies and I never go near them. Both family and horses. :-D
Can't you guys take a joke?. :lol:
Why keep receipts? For some reason when I pitch any related to an odd ball combination I come up with I'll need the part #'s and where the stuff came from for replacement purposes down the road. Keep 'em and the parts never need replacement, cheap insurance.
Ed
When Frank and I retired we took our friend Gene Burkland's advice and decided to build a Salt racer. Being old Buick guys we decided on the venerable old straight 8 for power and the 1984 Jag XJ-6 was in the field behind his house so we were set. We said if we pool about $10K each and do all the work ourselves we can have a different type of car and go have some fun. Well, we blew past that number before we had a rolling chassis. We had some fun and then the real "Salt Fever" set in and one afternoon talking to Dan we mentioned that we would like to build a lakester and twenty minutes later Lynn Goodfellow came by with pictures of a rolling chassis that he had for sale and we weren't ready for that, but two months later we went to Las Vegas and brought the car home. Fast forward to the present and with both cars and a whole lot of fun, we've screamed past $200K and we're still having fun. This is a disease for which there is no cure.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Right on Doug, like we all say, once bitten salt fever is forever., enjoy the ride. :cheers:
If I would start to think about the money I have to spent to be at the salt....there could be only one decision.....stay at home and read on Landracing what is going on at the salt....
I still prefer to be bankrupt on the end of the year....doesn't matter how much the expenses are.....
the virus of speed stuck too deep that I can stay away....
and that I was right to think so, shows a gift (may be the greatest I ever got)....it is now always on my head....and it is RED :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
the same is when you start a project.....once you come to the point where you stop to think about how much money you like to spent....and you only try to find out, how you get the racer fast...and faster....
and for Doug and Frank from the Salt Cat.....this keeps this fellows young and active in the lonesome Montana.... :-D :wink:
It isn't realistic to put a monetary limit on an addiction!! :-D
Lynda
And then , if you factor in the amount of time involved, like oh lets say 65 years ! while this might be a bit off topic, It's looking like we will take the 1710 Allison engine from Athol Graham's 'City of Salt Lake' Streamliner to Rialto Calif. this month !
Butch has been stashing money for this job for the last two years, the engine last ran in 1962, and we don't dare fire it with out a complete inspection, which involves a complete tear down. We are taking it to Joe Yancey , who is the World's foremost expert on these things, he has agreed to spend some time, and help out with this .
Back in the 50's when Athol built the car, he sacrificed every bit of time and money he could. Now it's Butch's turn to get the car back to running condition, hopefully with out breaking the bank ! Wish us luck !
Good Luck guys.
I wish you only the best. :cheers:
Mike.
Quote from: landsendlynda on February 04, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
It isn't realistic to put a monetary limit on an addiction!! :-D
Lynda
I did and when I came up with $300.00 worth of beer a month I had to find something better to spend it on aka Amy's camaro.... better than pizzing it away :-D :cheers:
Quote from: Captthundarr on February 04, 2014, 07:08:05 PM
Quote from: landsendlynda on February 04, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
It isn't realistic to put a monetary limit on an addiction!! :-D
Lynda
I did and when I came up with $300.00 worth of beer a month I had to find something better to spend it on aka Amy's camaro.... better than pizzing it away :-D :cheers:
I find if I brew my own beer.....
G
Remember the only difference between men and boys is the price of the toys.
Quote from: bearingburner on February 05, 2014, 01:31:35 PM
Remember the only difference between men and boys is the price of the toys.
Or how many thousands of work hours they are willing to lock themselves into their garage/shop to build their dreams with a lot of cool machinery and tools they have collected...
Quote from: superleggera on February 05, 2014, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: bearingburner on February 05, 2014, 01:31:35 PM
Remember the only difference between men and boys is the price of the toys.
Or how many thousands of work hours they are willing to lock themselves into their garage/shop to build their dreams with a lot of cool machinery and tools they have collected...
Thats the facts right there, I have over 20,000 hrs in my liner now.
Sid.
Doug, if you and Frank die dead broke just consider it perfect timing :cheers:
We'll write the last bad check to the undertaker.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
One check book would have enough checks to cover a month, started building a liner 20 years ago, since then it takes two, that wouldn't be so bad but over half of the guys selling liner parts want CASH!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
At Speedweek 2011 I decided to build a G/PS Volkswagen Passat. Over the next 11-1/2 months, and roughly $50k later, we purchased a junkyard-bound car off the local classifieds, bought some junkyard parts, some ebay parts, a lot of new components, and had a no-compromises cage built by a local racecar fabricator.
We made an effort to use (whenever possible) local (Salt Lake City) vendors and know-how, we missed the 227 mph record at Speedweek 2012, with an official run of 212.922.
In the following year, another $50k was spent on refinements and improvements, and at Speedweek 2013, a $5 part failed on our third 205-ish pass and pretty much wiped out our only 800 HP two-liter engine.
Then it rained. A lot...
Is it August yet? :?
If one is interested in setting records in cars that don't cost an arm and a leg consider studying the cars built by the person who's cars might of set more records than anyone. Beautiful on the outside but functional and simple on the inside with square tubed chassis's and no high dollar trick parts. He has been my inspiration.
Who is this man?
The Man...... (http://jackcostella.com/#home)
If I would of thought it was going to cost 30-50K to build a car or more I never would of started as I never could of finished. I'm not try to diminish the efforts of those that have the money to build high dollar cars and I love seeing those cars, but instead I'm trying to encourage those that don't have those kind of finances into pursuing their dreams,
Sum
Quote from: Sumner on February 09, 2014, 08:37:44 AM
If one is interested in setting records in cars that don't cost an arm and a leg consider studying the cars build by the person who's cars might of set more records than anyone. Beautiful on the outside but functional and simple on the inside with square tubed chassis's and no high dollar trick parts. He has been my inspiration.
Who is this man?
The Man...... (http://jackcostella.com/#home)
If I would of thought it was going to cost 30-50K to build a car or more I never would of started as I never could of finished. I'm not try to diminish the efforts of those that have the money to build high dollar cars and I love seeing those cars, but instead I'm trying to encourage those that don't have those kind of finances into pursuing their dreams,
Sum
Some think out of the box, Jack has no box.
Yep Sum, he is definitely "THE MAN"! His style and thinking were my inspiration to build my 'liner the way I'm doing it! It's coming along nicely and I've done most everything myself up to this point which has kept the cost way down. What's been really cool is how people have offered to help see this project through with me! That part I was never really expecting.
I was also not expecting the kind of help that joined our team either. Both caliber and quantity. This made all the difference. If I told you how much money we had on our car, you would think it must be a piece if junk compared to our competition, but the time! Oh the time! Man hours if paid to a competent shop would be through the roof! Hardware cost are hardware cost and pretty easy to keep track of but man hours, time that could be spent with our families, that what is expensive. Even if we are 100% successful this year, still not sure it will be worth the price. Time will tell. Not getting to run last year was absolutely heartbreaking. I'm still recovering.
All that being said, going after slower engine class records like Jack has done is a great idea and would probably bring just as much fulfillment on a much smaller budget.
Jack and Turbo Rick set the G/BFS at 348.743 in 2006. Not bad for a small 2L motor :cheers: Your car is very nice but you still have to run it to see if it is as fast as you think it is :evil:
Quote from: Speed Limit 1000 on February 10, 2014, 12:04:40 PM
Jack and Turbo Rick set the G/BFS at 348.743 in 2006. Not bad for a small 2L motor :cheers: Your car is very nice but you still have to run it to see if it is as fast as you think it is :evil:
Not sure if it was that motor or not but I think Rick has an exit speed or last mile speed over 365 :-), very impressive :cheers:
Averaging over 500 with a wheel driven car for a mile or a kilo??? Sooner or later it will be done and I hope I see it or at least I'm still here to read about it, but that will be a major, major accomplishment and might still have to be done someplace other than B'ville where one can have a longer course than even the 6 miles at the shoot-out.
Designing a car with the power and the aero to run 500 isn't a huge obstacle. It is getting it to do it in less than 5 miles so it can average it in the last mile. Over 300 and you are eating up a mile so fast that the time to accelerate just isn't there anymore, especially on a surface that has the traction the salt allows.
Speed...seconds to travel a mile
300........... 12 sec
350........... 10.3 sec
400........... 9 sec
450............ 8 sec
475............ 7.6 sec
500............ 7.2 sec
520............ 6.9 sec
The driver will be along for the ride pretty much. You aren't going to do it pedaling the gas pedal. The Speed Demon guys are where they are since George can pretty much run WOT the entire run and the computer brings on the power via the turbo's wastegates and traction control probably handles the little blips that need to be taken care of. Now they just need more traction to make it all happen faster before the 5 or 6 miles are up,
Sum
I saw a bit of lettering on the nose of a racer giving homage to the builders who drove. Says it all for me
George [
Sum, a very good point that most do not think about. There is a reason that the Goldenrod held that record so long :cheers:
No good salt. No good run.
Richard 2
And yet you see some very fast cars pushing for 1/4 mile and even farther.
JL222
Quote from: Richard 2 on February 10, 2014, 05:04:56 PM
No good salt. No good run.
Richard 2
in the 60's there were two incredible speed machines at the salt - one was the Goldenrod the other the Bluebird CN7.
Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.
what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.
The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).
Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating...
With the 12-14 mile long course to same time, at Bonneville, the record could be in the range of 500 mph or 500+.....
...so much to GOOD SALT
unfortunately Donald didn't like to come back to the Bonneville Salt Flats after his incident in 1960.....
I was referring to the year to year Salt conditions (as in last years bad salt and 2010's good salt).
But the Donald Campbell salt conditions are interesting. He also had 4000 hp, 4 wheel drive, and planned on 500 mph.
Did he have any chutes or just the 4 inboard brakes?
Richard 2
I was there in 1960 the week after Speedweek when the truck transporting Blue Bird arrived . The British tractor and trailer must not have met all our laws and we heard they had been pulled over many times on the way from Boston . I assumed not returning here for 1964 was because of that .
Quote from: Richard 2 on February 11, 2014, 05:58:55 AM
I was referring to the year to year Salt conditions (as in last years bad salt and 2010's good salt).
But the Donald Campbell salt conditions are interesting. He also had 4000 hp, 4 wheel drive, and planned on 500 mph.
Did he have any chutes or just the 4 inboard brakes?
Richard 2
the Bluebird CN7 had two airbrakes on the far end, left and right...but also, when the car run in Australia, a parachute.
Quote from: PorkPie on February 11, 2014, 02:58:25 AM...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.
what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.
The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).
Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......
Thanks for the history lesson :-).
There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500. The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction? He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.
Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile. If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed). I have a feeling that they have the HP now to go faster but are up against the aero wall where they are traction limited. If so they have to improve traction either with weight or with aero downforce both of which will change everything again for them.
I once asked Tom, correct me if I'm remembering wrong Tom, "since you can run 450 at about 40-50% throttle and can't use more without spinning the tires why not add weight to the car". His answer was that he had run spread sheets on accelerating the car with different car weights and that sure more weight would help with top end speed by allowing more throttle there but the car would be slower to accelerate with the added weight and still run out of course. At these high speeds it just isn't about designing a car that can run the speeds but one that can accelerate to them in the distance available. It is going to come down to probably computer controlled wings for downforce during the run,
Sum
Sum, I just don't believe 500 will ever happen at Bonneville due to the deterioration of the Salt and more importantly the lack of shutdown length due to the same problem.
I think the only vehicle with a chance of stopping with what's now available would be the Speed Demon as all the other vehicles may be too heavy to stop.
This would include the Burkland's, Treit and Davenport, and probably even the faster single engined streamliners of longer length than the Demon.
I don't believe that there is any venue left in North America that can sustain multiple runs for any of these guys unless a miracle (such as the BLM doing what it should do and hauling all the salt sitting in piles along the south side of I-80 back to where it was STOLEN from) happens, and due to politics, that will never happen in most of our's lifetime. Just my sad opinion, Bob.
Quote from: Sumner on February 11, 2014, 09:28:07 AM
Quote from: PorkPie on February 11, 2014, 02:58:25 AM...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.
what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.
The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).
Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......
Thanks for the history lesson :-).
There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500. The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction? He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.
Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile. If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed),
Sum
maybe some more information on Donald's record run....only in the fourth mile - means measured mile - he accelerate for more than 80 mph - he entered the measure mile with around 360 mph.....due to the wet track he could accelerate not better in the first three miles.....
the measured mile had lots of crossing grooves, most of this grooves was 2 inches deep and up to five inches wide....not the right condition to accelerate, especially at that speed....
but this grooves showed how wet and soft the salt was...
in the 60's at Bonneville the international track was still good for 13 miles plus.....means 6 miles for acceleration before entering the measured mile....
or two more to go after leaving the fourth mile....and under perfect condition his final speed at the Lake Eyre he had reached much earlier....
at last...the Bluebird was a wheel driven car....with some help from this exhaust tube..... :-D
Liners need a variable spoiler, wing and more tires 4 wheel drive + 2 more in tandem. Dragsters and Funny cars are accelerating to 324 + in 3.7 sec and 3.9 sec in 1/4 mile. wonder what their speed and ET would be with Bville tires.
Tandem axle liner with variable wings being built, and at the body stage now.
JL222
John, my concerns with air brakes is the learning curve of what if's which include how much is too much, what happens if one side fails or is slower to react?
What effects could sudden wind gusts from the side have on the design? And lastly, how do you deal with the sudden unloading of the chassis?
While I am sure that these problems can logicaly be solved with fly-by-wire systems, it is the learning curve at 450+ that worries me. Bob
Quote from: jl222 on February 11, 2014, 11:20:41 AM
Dragsters and Funny cars are accelerating to 324 + in 3.7 sec and 3.9 sec in 1/4 mile. wonder what their speed and ET would be with Bville tires.
JL222
SLOW :evil:
Quote from: Sumner on February 11, 2014, 09:28:07 AM
Quote from: PorkPie on February 11, 2014, 02:58:25 AM...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.
what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.
The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).
Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......
Thanks for the history lesson :-).
There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500. The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction? He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.
Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile. If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed). I have a feeling that they have the HP now to go faster but are up against the aero wall where they are traction limited. If so they have to improve traction either with weight or with aero downforce both of which will change everything again for them.
I once asked Tom, correct me if I'm remembering wrong Tom, "since you can run 450 at about 40-50% throttle and can't use more without spinning the tires why not add weight to the car". His answer was that he had run spread sheets on accelerating the car with different car weights and that sure more weight would help with top end speed by allowing more throttle there but the car would be slower to accelerate with the added weight and still run out of course. At these high speeds it just isn't about designing a car that can run the speeds but one that can accelerate to them in the distance available. It is going to come down to probably computer controlled wings for downforce during the run,
Sum
Sumner , You admirably described the point and I agree with your conclusion.Turning around with more weight and more power is a closed circle.
Today's traction control and controlled downforce on a reasonably light car is the way to go in my view
Given the thread deviation from original poster (should this become a new thread?) -- two problems with controlled downforce: #1) will Bonneville safety rated high speed tires handle the load forces created?; #2) how much downforce can one make when the salt base itself is not of very good condition today (ie: will tire groove compression from heavy downforce aided vehicles on the course become an issue for other competitors potentially?).
From the rulebook, remember that 2.Q Computer states: "Vehicles may be equipped with a computer which affects engine operations ONLY, except in vintage engine classes section 2.A.1" (so no computer to control your aerodynamic package -- but there are other methods to do it without computers...)
Serious attempts will not be controlled by SCTA rules.
FREUD
Every time I see this topic come up I have a little chuckle to myself. This has to be one of the best oxymoron's in land speed racing. Liner Budgets... Here are some other notable oxymoron's:
1)Definite maybe – as in we definitely maybe know what it costs
2)Deliberate speed – as in this thing was built with deliberate speed, it took ten years...
3)Negative income – as in I've achieved negative income funding this project
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...
Thanks for adding so much value. :cheers:
Like many racers, Ton Main doesn't post here - but sits back and reads most of what we say. Once in a while he sends along something that he'd like to say if he did post -- and here's one of those items. Understand that I'm posting it for him as I would for you -- with full attribution and his contact information. With that said:
Liner Budgets
Dean of Los Angeles
1st Speed Demon nor any models of Speed Demon were ever in a wind tunnel or ever put in CFD testing.
2nd It is becoming common place to dispense with all the time and work to build the wooden buck, cover it in foam and shape it and all the work in bondo and sanding it. Then you have all the work to create the mold around it. When you can simply eliminate all the time & work in building the buck. We choose to go directly to creating a mold witch saved us at least a month in time plus we got a perfect fit body.
3rd The mold and body was not built at Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites factory.
IF you have any questions do not hesitate to call me any time 818-998-7848
Thanks
Ron Main
Quote from: Seldom Seen Slim on February 13, 2014, 11:46:02 AM
Like many racers, Ton Main doesn't post here - but sits back and reads most of what we say. Once in a while he sends along something that he'd like to say if he did post -- and here's one of those items. Understand that I'm posting it for him as I would for you -- with full attribution and his contact information. With that said:
Liner Budgets
Dean of Los Angeles
1st Speed Demon nor any models of Speed Demon were ever in a wind tunnel or ever put in CFD testing.
2nd It is becoming common place to dispense with all the time and work to build the wooden buck, cover it in foam and shape it and all the work in bondo and sanding it. Then you have all the work to create the mold around it. When you can simply eliminate all the time & work in building the buck. We choose to go directly to creating a mold witch saved us at least a month in time plus we got a perfect fit body.
3rd The mold and body was not built at Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites factory.
IF you have any questions do not hesitate to call me any time 818-998-7848
Thanks
Ron Main
Slim, I love it when Ron sends you this info! Thanks Ron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
A reply from Dean and others that defame Ron? Oh yeah, backup info?
DW
Quote from: JoshH on February 12, 2014, 01:01:24 PM
Every time I see this topic come up I have a little chuckle to myself. This has to be one of the best oxymoron's in land speed racing. Liner Budgets... Here are some other notable oxymoron's:
1)Definite maybe – as in we definitely maybe know what it costs
2)Deliberate speed – as in this thing was built with deliberate speed, it took ten years...
3)Negative income – as in I've achieved negative income funding this project
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...
Budget is not a bad word but it is misused a lot. Budget just means HOW you spend the predetermined amount of money. All good Streamliner projects are operated on a budget. Some budgets are just bigger than others.
I've been thrilled to see the success Ron Main has had in the last couple decades. Twenty years ago I knew him only as the owner of Main Productions, where I'd call him and order hot-rod and race videos for my video store. He was always nice to deal with, and open to chatting about anything related to rodding.
Quote from: robfrey on February 13, 2014, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: JoshH on February 12, 2014, 01:01:24 PM
Every time I see this topic come up I have a little chuckle to myself. This has to be one of the best oxymoron's in land speed racing. Liner Budgets... Here are some other notable oxymoron's:
1)Definite maybe – as in we definitely maybe know what it costs
2)Deliberate speed – as in this thing was built with deliberate speed, it took ten years...
3)Negative income – as in I've achieved negative income funding this project
Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...
Budget is not a bad word but it is misused a lot. Budget just means HOW you spend the predetermined amount of money. All good Streamliner projects are operated on a budget. Some budgets are just bigger than others.
Or smaller! :-D
[/quote]Or smaller! :-D
[/quote
Yes I just maxed out this years liner budget .....purchased some graph paper and a couple of pencils ......lucky I'm only at the design stage. :-D
Dig deep brother.
This is the ultimate test. :evil:
Quote from: Jack Gifford on February 16, 2014, 07:36:59 PM... Ron Main... owner of Main Productions...
Oops... name of that business was "Main Attractions".
I often wondered if some of these fast and famous folks who I dont see post here come and lurk. Now I do. Thank you Ron Main for setting the inquisitive minds straight.
I also like what RobFrey said, a budget isnt necessarily the money needed to build and run a car, but how the money is alloted to run a car ( if I read what he was saying correctly )
Sum, thank you for mentioning that when someone new to LSR reads these topics regarding what it takes to build/maintain and run a car is rather intimidating and daunting to folks considering jumping in to this sport. As someone who has been around drag racing the majority of my life, I know that racing takes money. Sometimes these topics might or have scared off someone from even trying to do this ( and a liner wasnt even what hey were considering building ) It all just depends on what you want to do ( be a record setter or just go out and have fun ) what skill sets you or friends might posess and how much support you can get from the better half :-) LSR is doable, its just a matter of to what extreme you want to do it. Thanks again for trying to not scare off newbies :-D
Frankie, from my side it's all or nothing.
Some days I spend it all and on other days there's nothing.
Literally zero.
I'm down to only two miracles a week. St. Anthony must have gone on vacation. I think I wore him out. :-)