Did anyone else have a hard time getting a good plug reading using this gas at Speedweek? We really struggled with it.
Four of the first six people I talked to had burned a piston. I don't know if it was fuel or air pressure but it sure was giving people that should know better a big fit.
Quote from: doug odom on August 23, 2010, 08:33:17 PM
Four of the first six people I talked to had burned a piston. I don't know if it was fuel or air pressure but it sure was giving people that should know better a big fit.
I'm sure it was a mixture of both or the lack of. :mrgreen:
I was told that it is imposible to get ALMOST ANY plug reading with it which was my experience
The plug insulators always look white to me. I cannot jet the ERC 100 using plug readings. They always seem similar to a lean mixture on an engine running normal gasoline. I look down through the plug hole with a light to see the top of the piston. Nipple brown is the color that I want to see on the crown. Any pitting is a sure sign of a lean mixture.
Quote from: wobblywalrus on August 23, 2010, 09:53:11 PM
The plug insulators always look white to me. I cannot jet the ERC 100 using plug readings. They always seem similar to a lean mixture on an engine running normal gasoline. I look down through the plug hole with a light to see the top of the piston. Nipple brown is the color that I want to see on the crown. Any pitting is a sure sign of a lean mixture.
We used the ERC 110for years and always had white insulators, but could tell not lean from other pars of plug,
we switched to the A8C 118 OCT I believe and have color, still had piston problems [ skirt ] but don't no why yet.
JL222
Looking at the top 2 threads of the plug have always told me what was happening. The base of the porcelin needed a tan ring to be right on. Always used 118...............Good luck
I wish I could remember the gentlemans name but we had a "fuel lesson" in impound. He explained that you wanted a fuel with a high octane rating if you had lots of compression and were concerend about detonation; that is why we run 118 A in Ratical.
A fuel with this characteristics burns slower, because it has a higher 90% vaporization temp and has additives. 110 has a fairly high 90% temp I was told.
Otherwise you wanted a fuel with a lower 90% vaporization temp which will burn faster.
With his recomendation we switched to 108 from 110. He also told us we would be amazed at how much more jet we would need. We were running a 165 moved up to 168 then 172 and were planing on trying a 178, we were getting better indication on the plugs but we hadn't seen any indicatin of off idle richness---we were running faster into an increasing quartering headwind. We decided to go home from impound on Thursday am rather to wait out the storm as we were just bumping our on weak record.
That's great information guys, thanks a bunch :cheers:
Used the 118 in our 12.5:1 N/A engine, plugs were hard to read (what I'd expect for such an inappropriate fuel choice). But, switched to the 114 equivalent and the plugs looked the same - little or no heat, clean white porcelain. But we picked up 5mph with no other changes.
O2 sensors seemed to be working correctly. I leaned it out from the above two passes, which were in the high 11s AFR (way too rich), to 12.2:1 AFRs and we picked up another 5mph. Crew chief was pretty scared/concerned about the way the plugs looked - no good reading, but no aluminum on them either - he asked me to fatten it up on the 4th and final run, so I ran it in the high 11s again. There was plenty of soot in the exhaust, the car slowed back down 5mph, plugs still looked clean & white.
After getting home and taking the engine apart, the report is "engine still looks brand new" (not sure what all that means, but, apparently we can trust our O2 sensors and lean on it a little more next trip).
I think if youda checked with Rick Gold, he'd have recommended the 110. Cheaper and probably more power yet. We followed his recommendations to Impound 5 times with about the same compression.
Stan
Quote from: Stan Back on September 06, 2010, 02:20:50 PM
I think if youda checked with Rick Gold, he'd have recommended the 110.
Rick was adamant, twice, that we run the 118. He seemed concerned that this engine had been hurt the previous 2 years. The engine did best on the dyno with C25. We learned the hard way not to simply ask for the "C25 equivalent, or similar" :roll:
Short note of my personal experience with fuel choices:
1. If your intake tuned length is very short, AND you're looking at spinning pretty fast, AND your cylinder head is aluminum, the 90% distillation temp is worth paying attention to. Lower 90% temp gasoline means it takes less time and heat to get vaporized. Higher 90% temps, in some engines will lead to white porcelains on your plugs, but black sooty exhaust and sometimes melted pistons as you try to figure it out. This can happen when all the fuel doesn't burn on time (gives a lean primary burn, followed by a long flame period at lower pressure...and into the exhaust, leaving the black soot).
2. In 2000 we tried running our 2 liter ModRoadster on a "heavy" fuel (high distillation temp and lots of BTU per unit). The car was running 102-103 mph, plugs were white, and the side of the body had 3 feet of soot trailing the exhaust outlet! We went back to the fuel truck, took out the heavy fuel (high 90% distillation temp), and put in the 118 octane with low 90% temp. We went straight back in line, changing nothing, and ran 183mph, leading to a 181 record that stood for some time.
3. 90% distillation temp is the temperature at which 90% of the initial volume is fully vaporized. I used to use Core Referee Lab, at Long Beach airport, for fuel testing (customer cars issues). They told me that 400-440 degree 90% distillation is about 1/2 and 1/2 gasoline and deisel (when folks goof up at the pump). If you need to run on the rich side, high 90% temps could give you trouble. The folks at the fuel trailer were very helpful in showing me the temp charts for the available fuels (last year and this year). I had no jetting difficulties, and both years bumped up records. The fuel I chose had the lowest distillation temps.
Lots of chemistry needs to happen in milliseconds. Hope this helps,
JimL
Jim---thanks
..80 mph gain by only changing gas...wow
Jim, assuming a fellow has a lean primary burn and a secondary burn in the exhaust tract, will this give a false "rich" reading on the lambda meter? In other words, the burn in the combustion chamber is leaner than the meter indicates?
Quote from: wobblywalrus on September 07, 2010, 08:54:43 AM
Jim, assuming a fellow has a lean primary burn and a secondary burn in the exhaust tract, will this give a false "rich" reading on the lambda meter? In other words, the burn in the combustion chamber is leaner than the meter indicates?
For what it's worth, in our case - the O2 sensors seemed unfazed (I got the expected AFR for the quantity of fuel going into the engine). They worked fine on the different fuels and their indications aligned with the performance. I.e., leaning it out to mid 12s picked up power, high 11s AFR slowed us down a bit and sooted the exhaust a little more.
O2 sensors dont like our high octane leaded gas. We killed one on the dyno before SW. I Try and keep a couple of spares.
our observation is, so long as the tune is in check (and not putting wet fuel on the sensor) the O2 sensor do not care about octane, and they don't mind lead either.
QuoteO2 sensors dont like our high octane leaded gas. We killed one on the dyno before SW. I Try and keep a couple of spares.
In my experience failed O2 sensors is frequently due to mounting location issues. If they are mounted too close to the exhaust port they can over heat, and if mounted below the center line of the header, they can get hit by droplets of water condensation while they are hot which kills them. Innovate recommends that the O2 sensor be mounted above center line from 10:00-11:00 or 1:00-2:00 position if possible to avoid that thermal shock problem from wetting the hot sensor.
Innovate has a tech page that discusses O2 sensor mounting issues.
Larry
Speaking of the ERC 110k gas at Bonneville.. These spark plugs came from a turboed - but otherwise stock Kawasaki ZX-10R. It has a Power Commander that was tuned just right after the turbo install. The bike has been run on the street and has seen boost many times with no problems. We had the tank filled up at BUB with the ERC 110k gas, but on the street it used premium (about 92 octane). After about the 6th run, the bike started running badly. When we tore it down for the inspection, we found that ALL FOUR of the plugs were broken identically right at the same point. They don't look burned or melted, just broken. What can cause this? I know how to read plug color, but this is new to me. The exhaust has soot like it is running rich, but always has.
Essentially the only thing that has changed from the street to the salt is the gas and the 3 mile high speed runs. Could this be too lean? The exhaust soot says no. The boost is limited to about 10 pounds. I still need to get a borescope and look at the pistons.
Perplexed. Any ideas?
Don
Lean/ rich? Maybe both? It was lean,,,,,,took the ground electrode down the tailpipe, then got sooty as it lost the ability to burn the mixture efficiently?
I had a drag car fool me ,,,read the plugs after each run, turned out the cam was going flat, I about wore the bowl screws out before I got it figured out.
So,,,,where did those pieces go? Are there any witness marks on the turbo's exhaust inlet?
RICK
exhaust inlet= I think that's a oxymoron.
I don't know the answer Don but I do have some questions / thoughts for you.
Spark plug heat range. If these plugs have been run on the street they never see the cylinder head heat they will at the salt. 3 mile WOT is much more than a blast on an open stretch of road.
I'm sure you've thought about this but you shouldn't just change fuel and make pass without doing a plug check, even when running higher octane fuel.
The turbocharger pressure ratio is likely to be higher at Bonneville than home because of the Altitude. The turbo must work harder (spin faster) to make the same boost (psia) so the tune may change due to this.
My bet is the plug heat range over the distance you ran is the issue.
ERC makes a fine fuel. I run all my engines on the fuel we plan to run at the salt or lakebed and have never had a problem. I've never seen large power changes or major A/F or plug coloration issues with the different fuels I get from Rick. He has always been VERY helpful with my fuel choices and any information I may need in selecting fuel.
Just for reference I run ERC 110K, A-8C, & A-19A in most of my engines.
I need to reply to some questions with a caveat: I don't know much but what I said, about the fuel burn. I had an O2 sensor in the roadster and it worked fine on all the ERC fuels (it was a heated Ford element, hooked to a Split Second display unit). I never burned off electrodes on most ERC, but that 80 mph difference was not the first time that happened to me.
In '98 I couldn't get the roadster past about 110 (after the car had run 150+ at Elmo), and my 76 year old mother (her age that year) said, "If you haven't changed anything, it must be the gas." I went back and got the lower octane fuel (because it was a stock Toyota engine), and went 170 on the next pass. The car went 177 quarter, on return run, went lean and smoked #4 piston (not caused by the fuel, but a broken boost control and a stock ECM).
I'm just telling folks my actual experience, learned by accident, which I've seen shared by others. Other folks have tried my fuel choice and seen satisfactory results....maybe not as good as could be, but good runs without broken motors. That's why I believe the 90% distillation temp is a much bigger factor than we think.
That's all I know! Regards, JimL
I've found that a lot of us have too much knowledge and it sometimes blocks the common sense. Your mother backed up the theory. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
When you change to a different octane fuel, you also change burn speed.
High octane fuels do not necessarily burn slower than low octane fuels -- octane and burn speed are independent variables. Sunoco Maximal, is the fastest burning fuel that Sunoco sells and is 116 octane.
Changing the burn speed in effect changes your ignition timing.
You need to talk to your fuel supplier and find out the difference in burn speed. 90% evaporation number is part of the question but so is the actual fuel components blended into the fuel. The more volatile fuel with lower 90% evaporation temps will be better in an engine that needs rapid throttle response. A high 90% evaporation temp causes a slight delay when you hit the accelerator pump before the actual fuel mixture changes due to the slower evaporation rate. It also depends on how hot your air mixture is, on an engine running a very cold intake air temp due to ice chilled intercoolers you will want a lower 90% evaporation rate to avoid having the fuel droplets drop out of the mixture and wet the intake rather than evaporating.
In an engine that has plenty of air charge temperature and or manifold heating the less volatile fuel might work better.
When Formula 1 ran 86% toluene fuels they had to heat the fuel to avoid problems due to toluene's rather low volatility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toluene
Larry
I've found that a lot of us have too much knowledge and it sometimes blocks the common sense. Your mother backed up the theory.
And they call this the thinking mans sport :-D
A few years back when I was running fuel with Joe Fontana I took out a plug and handed it to Joe to look at. As he examined it and told me the porcelin and thread color were "just about right".
I pointed out the ground was missing. He said "holy s--t" we need to fatten this baby up. I thought he would see it my way. I have found as the ground gets burned off the plug will give indicate a richer condition than normal especially if the pluges were not new before the run.
Others pointed out corrections in heat ranges. As compression goes up it has been my practice to use colder plugs for the most part as cold as I could get..........Good Luck
...jimmy Fontana was likely very correct in his assessment..ie the plug
showed good color and likely good air fuel mixture...in this case it could
have been more of a timing/fuel quality issue for the cylinder pressure
at hand...richening it could be a band-aid of sorts...
ERC HAS BEEN THE UNSUNG HERO OF ANY SUCCESS WE HAVE HAD IN LSR..!!!!!
its been something we (team amo) have it seems practically taken for granted.....
what i hope many folks can try to do it talk with Rick Gold of ERC either
AT the salt flats or after in phone/email....
Rick PASSION for fuel is not surpassed by our passion to achieve faster speeds...
with fuels like vp's, they are often constrained by the series in which many of the fuels
are utilized......Ricks formulations are "custom" and really un-inhibited by outside entities...
he can build these fuels to the max for us.... and abit of enhanced knowledge from
him could go along way to utilizing his fuels to the best of our and our equipments ability...
Joe Amo :)
ERC's fuel can readibly be obtained at your homes as well
thanks to Rick and crew....then you have it as an INTEGRAL
part of your system in testing/dyno etc....so in making
the trek to Bonneville you have a more completed package not
dumping in fuel arbitrarily and hoping for the best or having
to sort out its effect on your system during valuable time on salt...
Joe :)
I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.
Quote from: fredvance on September 08, 2010, 10:09:36 AM
I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.
We try to do the same.
The only problem I had this year was, apparently Rick is *EXTREMELY* touchy if you say something like "Engine builder tuned this engine on C25, here are it's specs, can you help us select from YOUR catalog the fuel that's closest?"
Hint for all new people: DO NOT TRY THE ABOVE. To say that the response to this polite request was "rude" is putting it ridiculously mild. I've had good ERC experiences in the past, but this year we were made to feel like idiots, and I did not appreciate it even slightly. And no, we were not rude or pushy, and we even took the first recommendation which was such a ridiculous fuel choice - by ERC - that I am still not sure what to make of that situation. I like having the guy's help but, not everyone is a fuel expert and those that aren't, don't need to be treated the way we were. Maybe Rick was having a bad day.
Don't blame me, hey? I know that the porta-potty near his fuel truck has suffered from not being pumped -- in the past -- but that wasn't an issue this time around.
Gotta stand up for my reputation.
Actually JoeA we changed the bypass pill by 5 and got Patrick in the 2 club on the next 2 runs. When we burned the ground off of all 6 plugs and ruined 11 valves is when we were really too lean where Joe always seemed to start. In the 3rd year I made him put in a 40 bypass on the first run just to get down without hurting something. It blubbered, but ran all week as we backed up to a 196 record. Now it's just Parts Wash for me..................JD
no worries jimmy, just making a point that its not always a rich
lean issue...and often is a cylinder pressure/heat and fuel quality (ie detonation
resistance) issue......
Joe :)
For decades racers have had to conform to erc fuel at B'ville. The fuel is not readily available to but a small area of people when several brands are nationwide and easy to obtain. Are you allow to bring sealed containers of fuel such as VP, Sunoco etc and have it dispensed by the fuel man for a service charge or must you run erc only. If erc fuel only is permitted wouldn't a nationwide brand be in the best insterest of the racers so the fuel/tuneup that the powerplant is built to could be run. Sorry if this steps on rick's toes but I was very unforturnate in the 80's trying to make his product work and well, lets just say it did not make our Salt Flats experience pleasurable, infact that year there was a lot of engine damage to many of the participants so it was not limited to us but the end result of anything being wrong with the fuel of course was deemed not to be so, all of us that had trouble were at fault.
Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?
Quote from: wfojohn on September 08, 2010, 02:02:05 PM
Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?
If you run in a Gasoline class, you must use ERC fuels.
If you run in Fuel class, you can run whatever you want.
wfo as far as I know "no" or at least in the past. These type of questions need to be placed infront of the BNI Board for a decision. IMO nothing said here will make much difference but letters have been answered in the past.
I remember the fiasko in the 80's. It was just my luck to have been running a nitrous engine in my coupe and brought VP with me to use as fuel. I only needed the 3 runs (some of your remember those days right?) and was loading up when quite a few SDRC guys came up wanting to buy the VP I had left. At that point they didn't care about a sealed tank or a record just a complete pass without a burn down. I do not know who supplied the fuel that year but I know some years it has been tough to get a supplier. The costs/permits of bringing the fuel and selling it not cheap and their is not a huge demand or return for the seller and we've lucky to keep the Rick for as long as we have. Consistancy is important especially when we run wide open at these altitudes.
Quote from: wfojohn on September 08, 2010, 02:02:05 PM
For decades racers have had to conform to erc fuel at B'ville. The fuel is not readily available to but a small area of people when several brands are nationwide and easy to obtain. Are you allow to bring sealed containers of fuel such as VP, Sunoco etc and have it dispensed by the fuel man for a service charge or must you run erc only. If erc fuel only is permitted wouldn't a nationwide brand be in the best insterest of the racers so the fuel/tuneup that the powerplant is built to could be run. Sorry if this steps on rick's toes but I was very unforturnate in the 80's trying to make his product work and well, lets just say it did not make our Salt Flats experience pleasurable, infact that year there was a lot of engine damage to many of the participants so it was not limited to us but the end result of anything being wrong with the fuel of course was deemed not to be so, all of us that had trouble were at fault.
Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?
WFO JOHN:
ERC Fuels
are available nationwide. We shipped hundreds of gallons of product to LSR Racers prior to Bville Speedweek and Bub's this year. It may not be available at your "corner Speed Shop", but all one has to do is e-mail us or call us on our 800 phone line to place an order. We have distributors in the western states and in Connecticut. No one I know of has ever had trouble procuring our fuels.
As to fuel problems you may have experienced "in the '80s trying to make (ERC) product work", please be advised that ERC Fuels were not brought to the Salt until Speedweek of 1989. If you had problems "in the '80's" it was most likely not with our fuel. Note that in 1989 when ERC first came to the salt, LSR racers in the previous year, 1988, had suffered engine failures and other problems with fuel from another producer. This, in fact, led the president of SCTA to make contact with us pursuant to supplying their events, including El Mirage. We have supplied all SCTA, USFRA. and BUB'S events for the last 22 years. Literally hundreds of LSR records have been set on our fuels during that period.
If, indeed, you have experienced difficulties "mak(ing)" ERC product work" during the period that we were actually there, I'd like to hear about them. I can be reached at 800-445-1479 or e-ml at ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net.
Best regards,
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Quote from: donpearsall on September 07, 2010, 12:31:45 PM
Speaking of the ERC 110k gas at Bonneville.. These spark plugs came from a turboed - but otherwise stock Kawasaki ZX-10R. It has a Power Commander that was tuned just right after the turbo install. The bike has been run on the street and has seen boost many times with no problems. We had the tank filled up at BUB with the ERC 110k gas, but on the street it used premium (about 92 octane). After about the 6th run, the bike started running badly. When we tore it down for the inspection, we found that ALL FOUR of the plugs were broken identically right at the same point. They don't look burned or melted, just broken. What can cause this? I know how to read plug color, but this is new to me. The exhaust has soot like it is running rich, but always has.
Essentially the only thing that has changed from the street to the salt is the gas and the 3 mile high speed runs. Could this be too lean? The exhaust soot says no. The boost is limited to about 10 pounds. I still need to get a borescope and look at the pistons.
Perplexed. Any ideas?
Don
DON:
It is common for me to recommend our 110K in Turbo bike applications that have previously been run on street premium gasoline. The simple reality is that street premium gasoline is wholly inadequate for a boosted performance application; particularly when a 3 or 5 mile run at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) is factored into the equation. I've always felt that, for these types of applications, engine protection at full boost is the key objective. ERC110K will always meet that objective.
It's quite possible that your tune-up for this cycle, achieved at some lower elevation, on street premium gasoline, needed significant adjustment to run at Bville on different fuel. I don't have any real idea of what adjustments were attempted, but it wouldn't be surprising that the tune-up at Bville needed to be greatly changed.
As to your plugs: I can't see them well from the picture. However, I'm troubled by the fact that, evidently, you cracked some insulators. This, as I believe someone else suggested, could be a plug heat range issue. If the plug couldn't get rid of its heat fast enough and/or the insulator to centerwire clearances were of the
"close clearance" specification, cracking of the insulator could result from rapid center wire temperature increase.
If you'd like to send the plugs to me for closer inspection and evaluation, I'll be happy to look at them for you and give you my thoughts.
If you have additional questions, please feel free to give me a call at 800-445-1479 or drop me an e-mail at
ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net.
Best regards.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Quote from: dieselgeek on September 08, 2010, 10:18:12 AM
Quote from: fredvance on September 08, 2010, 10:09:36 AM
I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.
We try to do the same.
The only problem I had this year was, apparently Rick is *EXTREMELY* touchy if you say something like "Engine builder tuned this engine on C25, here are it's specs, can you help us select from YOUR catalog the fuel that's closest?"
Hint for all new people: DO NOT TRY THE ABOVE. To say that the response to this polite request was "rude" is putting it ridiculously mild. I've had good ERC experiences in the past, but this year we were made to feel like idiots, and I did not appreciate it even slightly. And no, we were not rude or pushy, and we even took the first recommendation which was such a ridiculous fuel choice - by ERC - that I am still not sure what to make of that situation. I like having the guy's help but, not everyone is a fuel expert and those that aren't, don't need to be treated the way we were. Maybe Rick was having a bad day.
DIESEL:
If I was short with you at Bville, please accept my apologies. I was probably buried with tasks and not "customer service oriented" when we interacted and I should have been. Again, please accept my apologies.
Re a "C25 equivalent": Please be advised that ERC offers nothing (with the exception of some of our improved clones which would not be Bville gas class legal) that is a true "equivalent" to C25; and, if we did, we would not offer it as an LSR fuel. C25 is a very nice fuel for its intended purpose which is drag racing. LSR racing is not drag racing. We try to take into account, when we make fuel recommendations, the fuel's intended use. Indeed, this is one of the most important considerations.
I'm surmising that I probably recommended ERC A19A fuel for your application (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this). A19A works extremely well in very high compression N/A applications; and many, many Bville records have been set on this fuel. As it compares to C25, you might be interested to know that Reher & Morrison ran A19A vs. C25 back to back in one of Earl Wooden's BBC engines a few years ago. Power production was virtually identical; an interesting fact considering A19A's much higher Research (F1) and Motor (F2) octane numbers.
You mentioned that the fuel I recommended to you seemed like a "ridiculous fuel choice". If you would please, clarify this comment for me. Also, if you'd come back with some info on your race engine, I'll take another look at a fuel recommendation for your combination.
Best regards,
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
What would have to be done so that another fuel suppliers could sell at the salt.?That way racers could have more than one choice.
Quote from: coloradodave on August 23, 2010, 07:58:22 PM
Did anyone else have a hard time getting a good plug reading using this gas at Speedweek? We really struggled with it.
TO LSR RACERS RE PLUG READING:
The author of the post above reflects many comments I got during this Speedweek and several prior Speedweeks re plug reading. Here are some thoughts which may be helpful:
When reading a new (one or two run) set of plugs, it is quite common to see little or no color on the insulator if the engine is tuned properly, has adequate ignition energy, the mixture strength is proper, and the plug is the right heat range. If any of these requirements are not met "unusual" deposits or heat migration indications can be seen on the plugs.
Also note that Bville is somewhat unique in that the extended period of Wide Open Throttle (WOT) tends to heat the plugs for an extended period of time boiling off and scrubbing off normal carbon deposition on the insulator. I've read many, many sets of plugs from engines in impound which had little or no color to the insulators. This is not unusual and should not create concern.
A theoretically perfect set of one or two run plugs from a well tuned engine "chopped" clean at the end of a run will normally show just a bit of "tan fluff" at the base of the insulator deep inside the plug where it flares out to join the metal body of the plug casing where heating and scrubbing from combustion is reduced. However, it is quite common for this slight ring of fluff to be unseeable by the naked eye; necessitating a 5X or 10X plug viewer to look deep into the plug. Moreover, the rest of the insulator will be "refrigerator white" with no carbon deposition at all visible.
If the engine is rich or the plug is cold for the application or ignition energy is low some carbon deposition may be observable further up the insulator. When I see a set of one or two run plugs that have been seen to "color" early, I tend to look at these areas for the reasons why. I'll often, upon seeing "early color" suggest that the customer check his ignition, plug heat range, or mixture noting that a plug coloring this early is probably not indicative of maximum output, the correct state of tune, or possibly some other malady.
Note also that the low distillation range of modern racing fuels like those brought to Bville by ERC, either leaded or unleaded, tends to exacerbate the plug reading challenge. There are few, if any, "heavy ends" and minimal, if any, residue from residual, unburnable materials, as measured in an ASTM D86 distillation curve analysis, in high quality racing gasolines. This leads to a lower propensity for these fuels to color the insulator. This because combustion is more complete with quality fuels that have a very high percentage of low and middle distillate components which volatalize rapidly and combust completely.
Over time, even methanol, which is a single boiling point material volatalizing completely at only 147 deg F, will tan color a plug insulator. However, this takes time and running to make happen. The methanol drag racers who change plugs frequently will never see any insulator color. Bville racers may color the insulator on a methanol engine but, again, it will take time and several runs.
When "reading" spark plugs, it's important not to focus exclusively on insulator color. The condition of the center wire, the side wire (ground strap), and the threads and casing of the plug all tell a story. These should be examined carefully. They are typically read for signs of heat migration or direct exposure to combustion heat (the ground strap for example). They tell an important part of the combustion analysis story.
Hopefully, I've answered a couple of important questions with this post and, possibly, allayed some fears. There is much, much more to the plug reading equation. If there is interest in continued exploration of this subject, let me know and I'll pursue it further.
Also, Champion Spark Plug produces a very nice booklet with illustrative and informative information on plug reading. Lots of good, basic information contained therein. These booklets are available from ERC at no charge. Just let us know if you'd like one.
Regards all,
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Thanks for the offer to evaluate the plugs, Rick. I may send them to you since I plan to bring the same bike next year. I did a compression test, and the cylinders have full compression so that is good news. The strange part of this is that the plugs have BROKEN ground straps, not burned.
Don
"What would have to be done so that another fuel suppliers could sell at the salt.?That way racers could have more than one choice."
ERC offers more than one choice. And when it comes to gas classes, the Impound checkers know how to check for their types.
And it levels the playing field as far as gas classes is concerned. Every Gas record for the last 20+ years has been set with ERC gas.
The prices are fair, the service is good. Another supplier would slice up the business and make it probably not profitable for both (or more).
No, we don't get a discount -- but I sure think we all get a fair shake.
Stan Back
Quote from: donpearsall on September 08, 2010, 05:21:37 PM
Thanks for the offer to evaluate the plugs, Rick. I may send them to you since I plan to bring the same bike next year. I did a compression test, and the cylinders have full compression so that is good news. The strange part of this is that the plugs have BROKEN ground straps, not burned.
Don
DON:
Please send them over. I'd like to see them. What brand and part number plug are they ??
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
sorrie rick that was a motorcycle lol :cheers:
QuoteNo, we don't get a discount -- but I sure think we all get a fair shake.
Stan Back
Best thing you have said all year! :cheers:
Geo
Quote from: ERC RACING FUELS on September 08, 2010, 03:37:47 PM
DIESEL:
If I was short with you at Bville, please accept my apologies. I was probably buried with tasks and not "customer service oriented" when we interacted and I should have been. Again, please accept my apologies.
I stood in the background, it was our crew chief who bore the brunt. Thank you for offering an explanation here, it's entirely possible that we came across as not being interested in the details.
Quote
I'm surmising that I probably recommended ERC A19A fuel for your application (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this). A19A works extremely well in very high compression N/A applications; and many, many Bville records have been set on this fuel. As it compares to C25, you might be interested to know that Reher & Morrison ran A19A vs. C25 back to back in one of Earl Wooden's BBC engines a few years ago. Power production was virtually identical; an interesting fact considering A19A's much higher Research (F1) and Motor (F2) octane numbers.
The fuel you suggested, and we ran the first 2 passes, was A-8C. You indicated a concern because the car had hurt engines the two prior years. FUnny thing is, I think you are right about that, last year. We had the tune in check this year, however. Maybe "ridiculous" is a harsh word; but I know now that A-8C is better for the high boost roots-type blower guys, who don't have room for good intercoolers - thus high intake temps. Our motor was a 12.5:1 N/A 498" v8 running up to about 7500rpm. Ambient air temp = our intake temp.
I am not sure the name of the second fuel we ran - it was lower octane, 114? I am not sure if that was rated "motor method" or "research method" - I didn't have time on this project to master the fuel chemistry as I lacked time to go into that detail. 400 pages of "owners manuals" for engine management, datalogging, etc. killed all my free time!
The information you posted regarding plug reading, is EXACTLY what we needed to know!! Next time, I realize I should just bring you our plugs after a safe pass. That information will help me for years to come, thank you!
-Scott
Quote from: dieselgeek on September 08, 2010, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: ERC RACING FUELS on September 08, 2010, 03:37:47 PM
DIESEL:
If I was short with you at Bville, please accept my apologies. I was probably buried with tasks and not "customer service oriented" when we interacted and I should have been. Again, please accept my apologies.
I stood in the background, it was our crew chief who bore the brunt. Thank you for offering an explanation here, it's entirely possible that we came across as not being interested in the details.
Quote
I'm surmising that I probably recommended ERC A19A fuel for your application (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this). A19A works extremely well in very high compression N/A applications; and many, many Bville records have been set on this fuel. As it compares to C25, you might be interested to know that Reher & Morrison ran A19A vs. C25 back to back in one of Earl Wooden's BBC engines a few years ago. Power production was virtually identical; an interesting fact considering A19A's much higher Research (F1) and Motor (F2) octane numbers.
The fuel you suggested, and we ran the first 2 passes, was A-8C. You indicated a concern because the car had hurt engines the two prior years. FUnny thing is, I think you are right about that, last year. We had the tune in check this year, however. Maybe "ridiculous" is a harsh word; but I know now that A-8C is better for the high boost roots-type blower guys, who don't have room for good intercoolers - thus high intake temps. Our motor was a 12.5:1 N/A 498" v8 running up to about 7500rpm. Ambient air temp = our intake temp.
I am not sure the name of the second fuel we ran - it was lower octane, 114? I am not sure if that was rated "motor method" or "research method" - I didn't have time on this project to master the fuel chemistry as I lacked time to go into that detail. 400 pages of "owners manuals" for engine management, datalogging, etc. killed all my free time!
The information you posted regarding plug reading, is EXACTLY what we needed to know!! Next time, I realize I should just bring you our plugs after a safe pass. That information will help me for years to come, thank you!
-Scott
SCOTT:
I'm really curious as to why I would recommend our high cylinder pressure, hi density blower, turbo, nitrous gasoline, A8C, for your application ?? I would not do that unless there were some extenuating circumstances (that I can't remember). Can you refresh my memory as to what justification I offered for recommending A8C ??
Thanks much.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
You told us it was because we'd hurt motors the two years prior. Car #1001.
Quote from: dieselgeek on September 08, 2010, 06:28:26 PM
You told us it was because we'd hurt motors the two years prior. Car #1001.
SCOTT:
OK, Thanks for the info. I just wish I remembered more of the details of our conversation.
Thanks and best regards.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Quote
ERC offers more than one choice. And when it comes to gas classes, the Impound checkers know how to check for their types.
And it levels the playing field as far as gas classes is concerned. Every Gas record for the last 20+ years has been set with ERC gas.
The prices are fair, the service is good. Another supplier would slice up the business and make it probably not profitable for both (or more).
No, we don't get a discount -- but I sure think we all get a fair shake.
Quote
I'm not talking about different octane# I'm talking about giving different suppliers a chance to let racers run their product. The SCTA could approve at least one more supplier and let the racers chose between the two. I'm also not talking about making it more or less profitable. I'm talking about a choice. ERC was great to us this year they were knowledgeable and friendly. However if a person could run and compare two similar fuels at the same event it would allow a racer to decided if one fuel works better for their application. It would also take away the excuse of " we would have ran good, but the fuel was bad this year" I will continue to run ERC in our car, I take some home from the salt for tuning every year.
Quote from: SALTRACER on September 09, 2010, 07:11:03 AM
However if a person could run and compare two similar fuels at the same event it would allow a racer to decided if one fuel works better for their application. It would also take away the excuse of " we would have ran good, but the fuel was bad this year" I will continue to run ERC in our car, I take some home from the salt for tuning every year.
My opinion, this is something you should figure out long before showing up on the salt.
Other than my weird experience this year, dealing with ERC has been great. They've shipped us fuel for testing, quickly, and no runaound. I've never had a problem finding an appropriate ERC fuel for any engines I've been tuning, and the only time we've disagreed is when ERC is recommending more conservative fuel - not a bad thing at all.
I don't see this as the SCTA forcing us to use a certain vendor - I see this as the SCTA bringing in a vendor who is willing to work with the racers and actually forumlate SPECIFIC appropriate fuels for the application. To me, it doesn't get any better. I hope they don't change a thing.
Quote from: dieselgeek on September 08, 2010, 06:28:26 PM
You told us it was because we'd hurt motors the two years prior. Car #1001.
SCOTT:
I have, on rare occasion, recommended A8C for combinations which seem to have troublesome combustion characteristics. That might have been my rationale in your case.
How did you run this year ??
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Quote from: ERC RACING FUELS on September 09, 2010, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: dieselgeek on September 08, 2010, 06:28:26 PM
You told us it was because we'd hurt motors the two years prior. Car #1001.
SCOTT:
I have, on rare occasion, recommended A8C for combinations which seem to have troublesome combustion characteristics. That might have been my rationale in your case.
How did you run this year ??
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Rick -
We followed your advice on the A8C, and ran a safe tuneup and put +10mph on A/Pro, a 16 year old record... Then, we tried the lower octane fuel and same tune, picked up 5mph and bumped the record again. This is Lee Sicilio's Charger Daytona - I think you know him pretty well. You expressed concern that we didn't hurt anything, and that is because the last two years he was here with the exact same combo - both years, left with rods hanging outside the block. The problem was his EFI tuning - it wasn't being done properly. This year we prepared, spent time on the dyno, and had great luck on the salt.
Can't thank you enough for your help. I feel bad for grilling you earlier in this thread, sometimes negativity gets the best of us. Bottom line, your help gets an A++ from me, and don't change a thing. This year I'm studying fuel chemistry and will be less of a nuisance to you and your guys in the future.
thanks again,
-Scott Clark
Quote
My opinion, this is something you should figure out long before showing up on the salt
Quote
If there was more than one supplier then a person could try them on the dyno before arriving. If a person knew in advance who and what was selling at the salt they could figure this out long before they show up on the salt.
Quote from: SALTRACER on September 09, 2010, 11:04:17 AM
Quote
My opinion, this is something you should figure out long before showing up on the saltQuote
If there was more than one supplier then a person could try them on the dyno before arriving. If a person knew in advance who and what was selling at the salt they could figure this out long before they show up on the salt.
Have you been reading? You can get ERC fuels ANYWHERE in this country, easily. You can buy it plenty of places other than on the salt. I have known for at least5 years what fuel is offered, it's not like we go to the salt and get surprised by fuel choice.
ERC has always been very helpful and makes great fuels for LSR. That said, you can run any brand of gas that you want on the salt. The only time you have to run event aproved gas is for gas class records. If you want to see if some other gas is faster run it and if you are faster than a fuel record then run it in the fuel class then if you go faster look to find an ERC gas you can use to go back to the gas class. I do not think any other brand would give us the support that Rick has given us over the past 20 years.
It looks like SALTRACER is no longer with us, now just a guest.
SALTRACER if you see this come on back to the Forum. It is really a great place to get questions answered.
Tom G.
Hi Rick,
I looked on your website for distributors, did I over look the link? Anyway, who is closest to south middle Tennessee, I wanted to check on a small amount for my engine dyno for this winter.
If I am not mistaken you can buy 5 gallons, a small drum or a 55 gallon drum--he can ship it right out . We had great service in the past.
I've had Rick ship me a 15 gallon drum for dyno and test runs. I returned the drum to Bonneville. He is great to work with.............JD
I'm in agreement with Sparky and JD
If we want to test with the right fuel, Rick can ship anywhere.
For testing in Michigan I had ERC ship 15 gallons to me. It wasn't cheap to ship, but well worth the effort and cost.
Now I don't worry too much as I think Methanol is pretty consistent.
I just need some cheap POP!
We've had consistant fuel with ERC for 22 years. The last 2 decades of records have been set with ERC fuel. We have set 6 gas roadster records in the last 10 years using ERC 110. I feel the reason there is no other fuel vendor at the salt is the same reason NASCAR only uses Sunoco...consistancy. Rick has done the LSR racer right and has been very helpful to us. When we get fuel Rick asks us what we want, my response is always the same. "this is what we're running you tell us what we want" and he does and it works. Rick has always helped us and is dedicated to LSR so I thought I'd chime in.
Quote from: wfojohn on September 10, 2010, 06:27:05 AM
Hi Rick,
I looked on your website for distributors, did I over look the link? Anyway, who is closest to south middle Tennessee, I wanted to check on a small amount for my engine dyno for this winter.
WFO JOHN:
We would ship your order out of either Connecticut or San Lorenzo, Ca dependent upon which fuel you ordered. Most orders go out the day they are ordered or the following day. All of our shipments go via ground truck freight. We do no UPS package freight because of the expense and complication. Credit cards, checks, cash accepted.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Rick...Glad to see you here. Could you explain the difference in 110 and A-8C or how it reacts differently.
Were happy with the A-8C as we ran a best ever 280 21/4 and 294 first mile speed.
Also is the left over fuel in my tank still good from speedweek, or how soon should we get it in a sealed container.
J Langlo :cheers:
Quote from: SALTRACER on September 08, 2010, 04:19:26 PM
What would have to be done so that another fuel suppliers could sell at the salt.?That way racers could have more than one choice.
we had a new vendor at speedweek this year i think he sold 4 tires (total).... you guys have no idea what a great service Rick is doing for us by coming out and supplying our needs.... I greatly appreciate his effort and support, on and off the track
Kent
I am with Kent on this. No need to have 2 fuel guys.
I noticed that no apology seems to have been given to Rick from a certain racer ( wfojohn) who stated ERC fuel was at fault for engine failures in the 80s even though it now appears ERC fuel was not used. Very un-cool!! :x
I also see no need for any changes to the fuel supplier at Bville. In the few times I've been to the salt Rick has always been very helpfull. He always asks for some engine specs and then gives his reccomendation. I've had no reason to second guess his choice yet... :cheers:
Larry
That was some really good info that Rick shared with us. I found his information interesting and useful. So thanks Rick good job. :cheers:
Quote from: jl222 on September 10, 2010, 10:18:10 AM
Rick...Glad to see you here. Could you explain the difference in 110 and A-8C or how it reacts differently.
Were happy with the A-8C as we ran a best ever 280 21/4 and 294 first mile speed.
Also is the left over fuel in my tank still good from speedweek, or how soon should we get it in a sealed container.
J Langlo :cheers:
JOHN,
There are several key differences. I'll list them and then give information/explanation related to each:
-OCTANE NUMBERS
-DENSITY (specific gravity)
-OXYGENATION
-% AROMATICS
-T.E.L.
-REID VAPOR PRESSURE (GROSS VOLATILITY)
OCTANE NUMBERS: The Research (F!) octane on ERC110K is, typically, 116 - 118. Motor (F2) octane is typically 105 - 108. A8C has a Research (F1) Octane that exceeds the top of the ASTM (American Society of Testing & Materials) scale which stops at 120.3. Tests we've done with blends and dilutions allow us to interpolate the (F1) Octane at approx 126. Motor F2) Octane for A8C is 115 - 116. I believe we could legitimately claim an R+M/2 Octane of 120+. But to keep it simple I usually call out the R+M number at 118. Obviously, on a side by side comparative basis, the A8C is much, much higher in Octane Number. Keep in mind that, for some applications, 1/2 an octane point is significant.
Note that in our spec brochures and the fuels info posted on our website
www.ercracingfuels.com, the specifications listed are always
typical specs. Also note that we are in the process of making some changes, updates to these numbers and offering some new blends as well.
DENSITY (specific gravity): The density of A8C expressed in specific gravity terms is significantly higher than 110K. 110K will typically come in at .735 - .740 specific gravity (or) 6.119 lbs/gal. A8C normally checks at .744 - .749 specific gravity (or) 6.235 lbs. gal. We've found during over 40 years of test blending and experimentation, as well as observing other motor fuel developments in racing, that density has a powerful impact on the way a supercharged or turbocharged engine performs; particularly with regard to the direct cooling by the fuel of the typically overheated combustion chambers, valves, seats, plugs, etc of a highly boosted engine. The more dense the fuel, the better job it does of direct conduction cooling as a function of fuel molecules in the charge air impinging on hot parts. Increase the density of a fuel and you'll always get a net increase in conductive cooling coefficient and better looking plugs, valves, valve seats, etc.
We graphically demonstrated the value of increased density to the Jaguar folks a few years ago when they were running a turbo engined IMSA GTP car. They had been using a competitors fuel of higher claimed octane number (a fuel actually quite similar to our A19A) and were simply amazed at the difference that proper formulation with respect to fuel density and a few other details could make in their engines.
It's worthy of note that when Honda ran heavily turbocharged engines in Formula 1, making nearly 1200HP from 90 cu.in., that they used a fuel so heavily laced with aromatics that their finished specific gravity was above .800 (or) 6.660 lbs/gal.; and the fuel was limited by Formula 1 rules at the time to 104 Research Octane. Density matters. More on aromatics further on.
OXYGENATION: ERC110K is a very mildly oxygenated fuel at 1% net oxy by mass. Note that street fuels are typically oxygenated at slightly less than 3% net oxy by mass. The oxygenate used in 110K has the effect of accelerating the burn slightly and creating clean, complete combustion. The slight increase in power that it offers is simply incidental to the other effects we're trying to achieve with this formulation.
A8C uses no oxygenated components at all. Although oxygenation typically improves power
slightly at the level used in 110K. I decided against oxygenate for the A8 series of fuels on the theory that, if power improvement is needed in a boosted or nitrous engine, simply turn up the boost or increase nitrous flow. A8C is designed only to support combustion and protect parts with no attempt to boost power through fuel formulation.
Also note that we are working on the latest formula iteration in the A8 series,
A8D. We
may include a minimal oxygenate percentage in this new fuel and we
may bring this fuel to Bonneville next year. Those decisions have not been made at this time.
AROMATIC PERCENTAGE: Aromatic chemicals can be very useful in a fuel blended for highly boosted engines. These chemicals all descend from the "Benzene Ring" family of chemicals and provide increased density, conductive cooling, and research octane number to A8C. Selecting the proper members of this family is crucial to creating performance improvement. As compared to ERC110K, the aromatic fraction in A8C is significantly higher.
TETRAETHYL LED (TEL): ERC110K is leaded to a level very much typical of most of the "110" products in the market place, approx 4.0 grams/gallon. This is a level approved by the surgeon general and generally accepted by the motor fuel industry. A8C is leaded to a much higher level. This is significant because led is that additive that is most effective at creating octane number. It's additional volume in A8C gives much increased resistance to heat and pressure; hence much higher octane numbers.
REID VAPOR PRESSURE (RVP): RVP is a gross measure of a fuel formulation's ability to volatalize and hence to ignite. Street fuels run the range from 7.0PSI in the summer to 13.0PSI in the winter in areas with very cold winter climates. ERC110K typically checks at about 6.0 PSI. A8C will typically check at about 4.5PSI. The lower RVP enhances pumpability, reduces vapor/liquid ratios in incoming fuel streams, and maintains the liquid nature of the fuel at high under-blower discharge temperatures; all of which contributes to highly boosted engine longevity and performance. Basically, A8C will stay liquid when required to do so and does a much better job of handling heat than other fuels; even than 110K.
It's also worth mentioning that other competing fuels in the marketplace are constrained by artificially low dielectric ceilings as mandated by certain sanctioning bodies; NHRA being the most notable example. These mandates have the effect of limiting formulations in order to create compliance with the mandates. These limitations can very adversely impact specialty fuels like A8C; and we can see in some of our competitors formulations that they, in fact, do. When ERC brings fuels to Bonneville, we operate under no artificially implemented constraints on formulation brought into effect by archaic sanctioning body thinking and/or marketplace protection efforts on behalf of some favored fuel company. Our formulations are designed to use all available modern materials and to be application specific to LSR engine requirements. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you can't offer the best possible fuels to your customers if unnecessary, artificial restraints tie the hands of the formulator.
John, I hope the above answers your questions. I've you have others please let me know and I'll be happy to answer them.
Best regards and thanks for your inquiry.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
For some of the sceptics about the quality of ERC vs the HEAVILY marketed VP fuels.
Remember this - VP has PAID the drag race associations for exclusivity requiring their competitors to use VP fuel. (Remember the $100,000 fine Don Schumacher, multi entant NHRA racer, had to pay NHRA a $100,00 fine for having nitro in his trailer for future testing that wasn't NHRA/VP).
Don imports nitro just like VP-probably from the same Chinese supplier. In fact, to anybody else, he sells the same fuel in FULL drums for the same price NHRA/VP sells 40 gallons to NHRA racers.
Don't be afraid of ERC.
Thanks Rick...that explains things more than I expected.
It looks like you gave such a detailed answer that you forgot about my question about [is my gas still good in my tank from speedweek and how soon soon should we get it in a sealed container]?
JL222
Quote from: jl222 on September 10, 2010, 07:25:28 PM
Thanks Rick...that explains things more than I expected.
It looks like you gave such a detailed answer that you forgot about my question about [is my gas still good in my tank from speedweek and how soon soon should we get it in a sealed container]?
JL222
JOHN:
Sorry, I did overlook that question.
The best practice is to never leave fuel sitting in any kind of open container for any time at all. A vented fuel cell or tank is an open container. Plug off your fuel vent(s) during the event when you're not racing (
always remembering to unplug the vent before you run) and, immediately upon conclusion of racing, empty the tank/cell and put the fuel in a well sealed metal container (D.O.T.) 5G, 16G, or 55G drum.
The above is best practice but rarely followed. Note that any fuel sitting in a vented tank for more than a couple of days has probably volatalized at least some of the low carbon number/light hydrocarbons out via the tank vent. This lowers gross volatility and negatively alters the distillation curve of the fuel. What this means in a practical sense is that the fuel formula after a couple of days has actually changed from what you initially poured in the tank. i.e. Now the tank contains fuel with a larger proportion of heavy, less lightable, chemicals, which also have a lower hydrogen to carbon ratio; a ratio very important for net heat production. Everything you do for fuel storage should be to minimize this light end "boil off" phenomena and also to minimize the exposure of the liquid fuel to UV light which can have adverse effects on fuel dye and on T.E.L.
Plastic Superjugs are handy and are OK for short term (a couple of days) fuel storage. However, they do admit UV light and they usually don't seal well creating the light end "boil off" described above. So use Superjugs when you must. But after the event seal up the fuel tightly in a metal D.O.T. drum with "O" Ring sealed bungs.
When storing the fuel in a garage or shed, keep the fuel elevated off the ground or concrete on a pair of wood 2X4's. This will minimize temperature changes on the fuel and will also let you see if there is any leakage out the bottom of your storage container. Often the bottom chine of the drum will leak slightly or "weep". If the drum is right on the floor the seepage can be hidden under the bottom of the drum.
If you store the fuel outside, make sure no standing water accumulates on the drum head. A small, cheap tarp with the flaps secured by a bungy cord will prevent this.
Never store fuel in any area where there is open flame (water heaters, furnaces, etc); even if the drum is sealed tightly. Drums can and do begin to seep in storage sometimes. If they begin to emit significant vapors near an ignition source obviously bad things can happen.
Best regards.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
What engine characteristics would make MULB a better choice in an air cooled motorcycle engine than than 110K?
Quote from: wobblywalrus on September 10, 2010, 10:15:00 PM
What engine characteristics would make MULB a better choice in an air cooled motorcycle engine than than 110K?
WOBBLY:
If the engine develops only moderate cylinder pressures and has shown tolerance for lower octane fuels in the past, I'll often recommend MULB for these applications. Obviously MULB at 101 R+M/2 octane has significantly lower resistance to heat and pressure than does the leaded ERC110K at 111-112 R+M/2 octane. So I try to be sure the REOR (Running Engine Octane Requirement) is not driven upward by other factors.
Examples of these other factors:
-Poor cylinder head and cylinder cooling (air cooled engines are often trouble in this area)
-Iron rather than aluminum head(s) and cylinder(s)
-Tuner is inexperienced
-Existing tune-up is obviously poor
-Engine has not demonstrated tolerance for lower octane fuels previously
-Engine has never before been run on a reduced octane, unleaded fuel
-Rider often goes to WOT at low RPM's and is prone to lugging the engine
-Tuner is unsure of compression ratio and/or prior fuels used
If any of the above factors exist, I'll try to point the customer in the direction of ERC110K.
Note that MULB is the most heavily oxygenated gasoline we bring to Bville. It is approx 3.0% net oxy by mass and, therefore, has the most theoretical power potential of the gasoline class legal fuels at Bville. That said it's important not to misapply this fuel to applications that develop high cylinder pressures and operate with high REOR.
Note that it's very common for the hi-rpm, 4 cyl, "superbike" engines to do very well on this fuel. At Speedweek and Bub's many racers use MULB successfully.
Thanks for your question. If you have others, just let me know.
Best regards.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Thanks for the information, Rick. I am the character with the pop rivet Triumph. I used the unleaded this year because I did not want to hurt my lambda sensor. Normally I run 110K. My engine seems like a good application for the unleaded based on your list and it ran very well when I used it.
...ran with erc's heaviest leaded fuel a8c, same
wide band for 6 years........
Quote from: joea on September 13, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
...ran with erc's heaviest leaded fuel a8c, same
wide band for 6 years........
Speaking of wide bands and leaded fuel... What's the best way to clean the o2 sensors?
I started getting eratic readings from the o2 sensors running A19A. I am thinking I might need to clean the sensors. Thanks
-Tuner is inexperienced
That about sums up our experience this year with our suck through situation---
Rick was unbelieveably helpful and tolerant :cheers: ---and didn't snicker one time :-o
Quote from: wobblywalrus on September 12, 2010, 08:42:57 PM
Thanks for the information, Rick. I am the character with the pop rivet Triumph. I used the unleaded this year because I did not want to hurt my lambda sensor. Normally I run 110K. My engine seems like a good application for the unleaded based on your list and it ran very well when I used it.
WOBBLY:
I don't remember our discussion on the static compression ratio for your engine. Use the MULB prudently and you'll be OK. Just keep in mind that it's octane numbers are significantly lower than the leaded fuel you are replacing.
BTW, I dig that fairing. It gives off an artsy vibe. Kinda' cool....
Best regards.
Rick Gold-owner
ERC Fuels
Quote from: ol38y on September 13, 2010, 08:08:13 AM
Quote from: joea on September 13, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
...ran with erc's heaviest leaded fuel a8c, same
wide band for 6 years........
Speaking of wide bands and leaded fuel... What's the best way to clean the o2 sensors?
I started getting eratic readings from the o2 sensors running A19A. I am thinking I might need to clean the sensors. Thanks
LARRY:
Carbon tetrachloride can be used to clean O2 sensors. Problem is that this chemical is pretty toxic and hard to come by. Sometimes just turning the sensor 180 degrees in the pipe will solve the problem. Most common fix is to simply replace the sensor.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Quote from: wfojohn on September 10, 2010, 06:27:05 AM
Hi Rick,
I looked on your website for distributors, did I over look the link? Anyway, who is closest to south middle Tennessee, I wanted to check on a small amount for my engine dyno for this winter.
WFO JOHN:
Sorry, been away from the computer while at World of Speed.
Please come back to me at
ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net with your street address and I'll work up a quote for a direct shipment to you. Also, let me know how many gallons you'll want shipped.
Thx.
Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner
Sending info.