ERC 110 octane fuel at Speedweek?

[fredvance]

I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.

[dieselgeek]

I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.

We try to do the same.

The only problem I had this year was, apparently Rick is *EXTREMELY* touchy if you say something like "Engine builder tuned this engine on C25, here are it's specs, can you help us select from YOUR catalog the fuel that's closest?"

Hint for all new people:  DO NOT TRY THE ABOVE.  To say that the response to this polite request was "rude" is putting it ridiculously mild.   I've had good ERC experiences in the past, but this year we were made to feel like idiots, and I did not appreciate it even slightly.  And no, we were not rude or pushy, and we even took the first recommendation which was such a ridiculous fuel choice - by ERC - that I am still not sure what to make of that situation.  I like having the guy's help but, not everyone is a fuel expert and those that aren't, don't need to be treated the way we were.  Maybe Rick was having a bad day. 

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Don't blame me, hey?  I know that the porta-potty near his fuel truck has suffered from not being pumped -- in the past -- but that wasn't an issue this time around.

Gotta stand up for my reputation.

[jimmy six]

Actually JoeA we changed the bypass pill by 5 and got Patrick in the 2 club on the next 2 runs. When we burned the ground off of all 6 plugs and ruined 11 valves is when we were really too lean where Joe always seemed to start. In the 3rd year I made him put in a 40 bypass on the first run just to get down without hurting something. It blubbered, but ran all week as we backed up to a 196 record. Now it's just Parts Wash for me..................JD

[joea]

no worries jimmy, just making a point that its not always a rich
lean issue...and often is a cylinder pressure/heat and fuel quality (ie detonation
resistance) issue......

Joe

[wfojohn]

For decades racers have had to conform to erc fuel at B'ville. The fuel is not readily available to but a small area of people when several brands are nationwide and easy to obtain. Are you allow to bring sealed containers of fuel such as VP, Sunoco etc and have it dispensed by the fuel man for a service charge or must you run erc only. If erc fuel only is permitted wouldn't a nationwide brand be in the best insterest of the racers so the fuel/tuneup that the powerplant is built to could be run. Sorry if this steps on rick's toes but I was very unforturnate in the 80's trying to make his product work and well, lets just say it did not make our Salt Flats experience pleasurable, infact that year there was a lot of engine damage to many of the participants so it was not limited to us but the end result of anything being wrong with the fuel of course was deemed not to be so, all of us that had trouble were at fault.

Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?

[dieselgeek]

Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?

If you run in a Gasoline class, you must use ERC fuels.

If you run in Fuel class, you can run whatever you want.

[jimmy six]

wfo as far as I know "no" or at least in the past. These type of questions need to be placed infront of the BNI Board for a decision. IMO nothing said here will make much difference but letters have been answered in the past.

I remember the fiasko in the 80's. It was just my luck to have been running a nitrous engine in my coupe and brought VP with me to use as fuel. I only needed the 3 runs (some of your remember those days right?) and was loading up when quite a few SDRC guys came up wanting to buy the VP I had left. At that point they didn't care about a sealed tank or  a record just a complete pass without a burn down. I do not know who supplied the fuel that year but I know some years it has been tough to get a supplier. The costs/permits of bringing the fuel and selling it not cheap and their is not a huge demand or return for the seller and we've lucky to keep the Rick for as long as we have. Consistancy is important especially when we run wide open at these altitudes.

[ERC RACING FUELS]

For decades racers have had to conform to erc fuel at B'ville. The fuel is not readily available to but a small area of people when several brands are nationwide and easy to obtain. Are you allow to bring sealed containers of fuel such as VP, Sunoco etc and have it dispensed by the fuel man for a service charge or must you run erc only. If erc fuel only is permitted wouldn't a nationwide brand be in the best insterest of the racers so the fuel/tuneup that the powerplant is built to could be run. Sorry if this steps on rick's toes but I was very unforturnate in the 80's trying to make his product work and well, lets just say it did not make our Salt Flats experience pleasurable, infact that year there was a lot of engine damage to many of the participants so it was not limited to us but the end result of anything being wrong with the fuel of course was deemed not to be so, all of us that had trouble were at fault.

Sorry, I buried my question in my little rant so to restate it - Are non erc fuels permitted if in sealed containers from a major fuel company?

WFO JOHN:

ERC Fuels are available nationwide.  We shipped hundreds of gallons of product to LSR Racers prior to Bville Speedweek and Bub's this year.  It may not be available at your "corner Speed Shop", but all one has to do is e-mail us or call us on our 800 phone line to place an order.  We have distributors in the western states and in Connecticut. No one I know of has ever had trouble procuring our fuels.

As to fuel problems you may have experienced "in the '80s trying to make (ERC) product work", please be advised that ERC Fuels were not brought to the Salt until Speedweek of 1989.  If you had problems "in the '80's" it was most likely not with our fuel.  Note that in 1989 when ERC first came to the salt, LSR racers in the previous year, 1988, had suffered engine failures and other problems with fuel from another producer.  This, in fact, led the president of SCTA to make contact with us pursuant to supplying their events, including El Mirage.  We have supplied all SCTA, USFRA. and BUB'S events for the last 22 years. Literally hundreds of LSR records have been set on our fuels during that period.

If, indeed, you have experienced difficulties "mak(ing)" ERC product work" during the period that we were actually there, I'd like to hear about them.  I can be reached at 800-445-1479 or e-ml at ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net.

Best regards,

Rick Gold 
ERC Fuels-owner

[ERC RACING FUELS]

Speaking of the ERC 110k gas at Bonneville.. These spark plugs came from a turboed - but otherwise stock Kawasaki ZX-10R. It has a Power Commander that was tuned just right after the turbo install. The bike has been run on the street and has seen boost many times with no problems. We had the tank filled up at BUB with the ERC 110k gas, but on the street it used premium (about 92 octane). After about the 6th run, the bike started running badly. When we tore it down for the inspection, we found that ALL FOUR of the plugs were broken identically right at the same point. They don't look burned or melted, just broken. What can cause this? I know how to read plug color, but this is new to me. The exhaust has soot like it is running rich, but always has.

Essentially the only thing that has changed from the street to the salt is the gas and the 3 mile high speed runs. Could this be too lean? The exhaust soot says no. The boost is limited to about 10 pounds. I still need to get a borescope and look at the pistons. 

Perplexed. Any ideas?
Don

DON:

It is common for me to recommend our 110K in Turbo bike applications that have previously been run on street premium gasoline.  The simple reality is that street premium gasoline is wholly inadequate for a boosted performance application; particularly when a 3 or 5 mile run at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) is factored into the equation.  I've always felt that, for these types of applications, engine protection at full boost is the key objective.  ERC110K will always meet that objective.

It's quite possible that your tune-up for this cycle, achieved at some lower elevation, on street premium gasoline, needed significant adjustment to run at Bville on different fuel.  I don't have any real idea of what adjustments were attempted, but it wouldn't be surprising that the tune-up at Bville needed to be greatly changed.

As to your plugs: I can't see them well from the picture.  However, I'm troubled by the fact that, evidently, you cracked some insulators.  This, as I believe someone else suggested, could be a plug heat range issue.   If the plug couldn't get rid of its heat fast enough and/or the insulator to centerwire clearances were of the "close clearance" specification, cracking of the insulator could result from rapid center wire temperature increase. 

If you'd like to send the plugs to me for closer inspection and evaluation, I'll be happy to look at them for you and give you my thoughts.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to give me a call at 800-445-1479 or drop me an e-mail at ercracingfuels@sbcglobal.net.

Best regards.

Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner

[ERC RACING FUELS]

I always have the ERC gas, that I am going to run at Bonneville, on hand so we can tune on the dyno with what we are going to run. It has worked so far.

We try to do the same.

The only problem I had this year was, apparently Rick is *EXTREMELY* touchy if you say something like "Engine builder tuned this engine on C25, here are it's specs, can you help us select from YOUR catalog the fuel that's closest?"

Hint for all new people:  DO NOT TRY THE ABOVE.  To say that the response to this polite request was "rude" is putting it ridiculously mild.   I've had good ERC experiences in the past, but this year we were made to feel like idiots, and I did not appreciate it even slightly.  And no, we were not rude or pushy, and we even took the first recommendation which was such a ridiculous fuel choice - by ERC - that I am still not sure what to make of that situation.  I like having the guy's help but, not everyone is a fuel expert and those that aren't, don't need to be treated the way we were.  Maybe Rick was having a bad day. 

DIESEL:

If I was short with you at Bville, please accept my apologies.  I was probably buried with tasks and not "customer service oriented" when we interacted and I should have been.  Again, please accept my apologies.

Re a "C25 equivalent": Please be advised that ERC offers nothing (with the exception of some of our improved clones which would not be Bville gas class legal) that is a true "equivalent" to C25; and, if we did, we would not offer it as an LSR fuel.  C25 is a very nice fuel for its intended purpose which is drag racing. LSR racing is not drag racing.  We try to take into account, when we make fuel recommendations, the fuel's intended use.  Indeed, this is one of the most important considerations.

I'm surmising that I probably recommended ERC A19A fuel for your application (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this).  A19A works extremely well in very high compression N/A applications; and many, many Bville records have been set on this fuel.  As it compares to C25, you might be interested to know that Reher & Morrison ran A19A vs. C25 back to back in one of Earl Wooden's BBC engines a few years ago.  Power production was virtually identical; an interesting fact considering A19A's much higher Research (F1) and Motor (F2) octane numbers.

You mentioned that the fuel I recommended to you seemed like a "ridiculous fuel choice".  If you would please, clarify this comment for me.  Also, if you'd come back with some info on your race engine, I'll take another look at a fuel recommendation for your combination.

Best regards,

Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner

[SALTRACER]

What would have to be done so that another fuel suppliers could sell at the salt.?That way racers could have more than one choice.

[ERC RACING FUELS]

Did anyone else have a hard time getting a good plug reading using this gas at Speedweek? We really struggled with it.

TO LSR RACERS RE PLUG READING:

The author of the post above reflects many comments I got during this Speedweek and several prior Speedweeks re plug reading.  Here are some thoughts which may be helpful:

When reading a new (one or two run) set of plugs, it is quite common to see little or no color on the insulator if the engine is tuned properly, has adequate ignition energy, the mixture strength is proper, and the plug is the right heat range.  If any of these requirements are not met "unusual" deposits or heat migration indications can be seen on the plugs.

Also note that Bville is somewhat unique in that the extended period of Wide Open Throttle (WOT) tends to heat the plugs for an extended period of time boiling off and scrubbing off normal carbon deposition on the insulator.  I've read many, many sets of plugs from engines in impound which had little or no color to the insulators.  This is not unusual and should not create concern.

A theoretically perfect set of one or two run plugs from a well tuned engine "chopped" clean at the end of a run will normally show just a bit of "tan fluff" at the base of the insulator deep inside the plug where it flares out to join the metal body of the plug casing where heating and scrubbing from combustion is reduced.  However, it is quite common for this slight ring of fluff to be unseeable by the naked eye; necessitating a 5X or 10X plug viewer to look deep into the plug.  Moreover, the rest of the insulator will be "refrigerator white" with no carbon deposition at all visible.

If the engine is rich or the plug is cold for the application or ignition energy is low some carbon deposition may be observable further up the insulator.  When I see a set of one or two run plugs that have been seen to "color" early, I tend to look at these areas for the reasons why.  I'll often, upon seeing "early color" suggest that the customer check his ignition, plug heat range, or mixture noting that a plug coloring this early is probably not indicative of maximum output, the correct state of tune, or possibly some other malady. 

Note also that the low distillation range of modern racing fuels like those brought to Bville by ERC, either leaded or unleaded, tends to exacerbate the plug reading challenge.  There are few, if any, "heavy ends" and minimal, if any, residue from residual, unburnable materials, as measured in an ASTM D86 distillation curve analysis, in high quality racing gasolines.  This leads to a lower propensity for these fuels to color the insulator.  This because combustion is more complete with quality fuels that have a very high percentage of low and middle distillate components which volatalize rapidly and combust completely.

Over time, even methanol, which is a single boiling point material volatalizing completely at only 147 deg F, will tan color a plug insulator.  However, this takes time and running to make happen.  The methanol drag racers who change plugs frequently will never see any insulator color.  Bville racers may color the insulator on a methanol engine but, again, it will take time and several runs.

When "reading" spark plugs, it's important not to focus exclusively on insulator color.  The condition of the center wire, the side wire (ground strap), and the threads and casing of the plug all tell a story.  These should be examined carefully.  They are typically read for signs of heat migration or direct exposure to combustion heat (the ground strap for example).  They tell an important part of the combustion analysis story.

Hopefully, I've answered a couple of important questions with this post and, possibly, allayed some fears.  There is much, much more to the plug reading equation.  If there is interest in continued exploration of this subject, let me know and I'll pursue it further.

Also, Champion Spark Plug produces a very nice booklet with illustrative and informative information on plug reading.  Lots of good, basic information contained therein.  These booklets are available from ERC at no charge.  Just let us know if you'd like one.

Regards all,

Rick Gold
ERC Fuels-owner

[donpearsall]

Thanks for the offer to evaluate the plugs, Rick. I may send them to you since I plan to bring the same bike next year. I did a compression test, and the cylinders have full compression so that is good news. The strange part of this is that the plugs have BROKEN ground straps, not burned.
Don

[Stan Back]

"What would have to be done so that another fuel suppliers could sell at the salt.?That way racers could have more than one choice."

ERC offers more than one choice.  And when it comes to gas classes, the Impound checkers know how to check for their types.

And it levels the playing field as far as gas classes is concerned.  Every Gas record for the last 20+ years has been set with ERC gas.

The prices are fair, the service is good.  Another supplier would slice up the business and make it probably not profitable for both (or more).

No, we don't get a discount -- but I sure think we all get a fair shake.

Stan Back