Comp Coupe or Modified Sports?

[trimmers]

I'm thinking of purchasing a certain vehicle (which I don't want to identify just yet), but I'm confused by the rules regarding which class it would run in.   

In the 2012 Rule Book (I believe these rules were new in 2011), at the end of first paragraph for the 5.D Modified Category (on page 66), it states: "If the car was produced and sold with 2 seats on some models and 4 seats (including jump seats) on other models, the car will be classified as a Coupe and Sedan.  Examples include Honda CRX, Ford Mustang GT 350's, Porsche, Nissan Z 2 + 2, etc."

Then, on page 73 (still in the Modified Category), at the start of the rules for the 5.D.4 Modified Sports classes, it states:  "This class is intended for production sports cars as accepted for GT class..."

So, if we go to the second paragraph of rules for the GT class in 5.E.3, on page 80, it sounds much like what was stated under the Modified Category rules, as it states:  "Body styles produced with jump seating for more than two people like a Datsun 280Z 2+2, Porsche 911 or Honda CRX even though they may have only two seats will be considered a coupe and sedan and must run in that class."

Here's the deal – the car I'm looking at is a small, closed European-built sports-type car, that's normally thought of as a 2-seater.  However, the car was available with what was called an "occasional rear seat".   This was a fold-down rear jump seat for two, which was a dealer-installed option.  Dealer-installed options on this vehicle were common and included wire wheels, an AM radio, wooden shift knob, oil cooler, luggage straps, etc.

So, it sounds to me like this vehicle (after an engine swap and other modifications) should be classified as a Comp Coupe.  Is there any way it could be run as a Modified Sports?

[Stainless1]

2 seat as produced by factory probably a GT... unless there is a small padded shelf behind the front seat, then is might be anybodies guess. 
To avoid any issues ask the question on the scta tech line or contact the modified chairman

[JR529]

Who manufactured the occasional seat, was it the same automaker or a 3rd party?

[jimmy six]

Original advertising and brochures go a long way to prove what ever point you want to make. Take the time to find them; even magazine advertisments.

20 years ago the rear seat had to sit 2 220# 6' guys but I think that's out the window; but 2 6 year olds are not people "yet".

.............Good Luck

[trimmers]

Who manufactured the occasional seat, was it the same automaker or a 3rd party?

Oh yes, the "occasional rear seat" was made by the manufacturer of the car.   They offered them for most of the different models of cars that they manufactured.   I've got factory parts diagrams that show the seats, attaching hardware, etc., along with their part numbers.   This was definitely a "factory" part.  I also have a factory equipment list, which shows what was standard equipment, and what was optional equipment.  It's on that list as a dealer-installed option.  It was common practice for this manufacturer's dealers to install certain optional equipment.  As I said previously, even the radio was a dealer-installed option.     

[Stainless1]

Original advertising and brochures go a long way to prove what ever point you want to make. Take the time to find them; even magazine advertisments.

20 years ago the rear seat had to sit 2 220# 6' guys but I think that's out the window; but 2 6 year olds are not people "yet".

.............Good Luck

JD I think that was out the window in 1978... our Fiat Abarth OTR, a factory 2 seater by the brochures, built for sports car racing was denied a record in GT because it had a 10 X 1/2 inch thick padded shelf behind the front seats, no padded backrest, just upholstery, no foot well, just the seat mount well.  Offered to let any official climb in and get comfortably seated for continued adult occupancy (rule book words at the time).... no takers... but no record either.  Got it the next year with the OTR motor in the Zagato.

[fastman614]

There has to have been a lot of flip-flopping on the rear seat issue over the years... i recall in the later 80s when Donnie Stringfellow and (I can't recall othe first name of his partner) Nicholson had a 240 or 260 or 280 Z car running in (Gas or) Altered Coupe and Sedan .... there was a loud outcry from pretty well ALL coupe and sedan competitors about it! I recall that, since they only managed a small increase in the record speed, the record was allowed to stand, but for the next event (the year after) they were told that they HAD TO stretch the car and BUILD IT INTO A 2+2 bodied car - (which they did)

The point though is that the NON 2+2 cars had small butt pads for passengers to sit on but the cars were IN NO CONCEIVEABLE WAY, suitable for use as vehicles able to carry any more than ONE passenger....

If the application of the rules is now that sports cars equipped with little butt pads behind the front seat makes the car legally a four passenger vehicle and, thus, a coupe/sedan.... this is new to me.... and IMO a bit unfair to those of us who have LEGAL AND REAL coupes or sedans.

Original Fastguys Car 614....The World's Fastest Chevy Vega
Current record holder - B/CGAlt 253+ mph.... B/CFAlt 254+ mph

[trimmers]

The car in question has both seat bottoms and seat backs for two people.   Whether or not I'd care to sit in it for an extended period of time is another matter.   I'm just looking for a correct interpretation of the rules before I expend any money!

[LittleLiner]

From your description of the rear "seats" it sounds like the car would be classed in the Modified category as a coupe/sedan.  As others have mentioned, your best bet is to contact the SCTA for a real ruling rather than rely on opinions from any of us here on the forum.

Also - you mentioned an engine swap as a requirement to be classed as a comp coupe. 
. . . . "this vehicle (after an engine swap and other modifications) should be classified as a Comp Coupe."

Actually that only applies to the Gas Coupe classes.  Altered and Comp Coupe do not require an engine swap.  "other modifications", yes.  But an engine swap is optional.   I'd quote the specific rule but don't have my rule book with me . . .

What ever class you end up running, best of luck to you . . . .

[Kato Engineering]

HUMM,

If you get this settled,
then I might bring back out one of the PANTERAS....

[Jonny Hotnuts]

There are defined elements of the class as dictated in the rule book but those are not concrete. A BMW isetta is a 2 seat car but is not a GT or sports.

It was put simply to me as 'spirit of the class' and while a car may have the particular requirements for a certain class, the actual determination will be based on what the car IS and not 'just because'.

.....that being said....

IMO it gets REALLY sticky when it comes to cars like the M series BMWs and other 'sport coupes'.....a true sports car on every level (runs very close in specs to corvette)....but a REAL back seat and originally designed as a coupe. [On the same note the Hayabusa is called a 'sport tourer'....Hummmmm).

You need to call Jim Miller or other official with what you are considering and get a real answer on the verdict for your potential project.

~JH

[dw230]

Once again, the same deal. Looking for a real answer on a mesage board. "Landracing.com said this is the class my car fits."

Contact Lee Kennedy, same section 16 as all the other committee chairs, as Jim Miller is no longer involved in the GT-Mod Sprots arena.

DW

[trimmers]

DW:  I realize that nothing is official here.  I just thought I'd see what everybody had to say first.  I know Lee, so I'll get in touch with him.

Thanks,

Jeff in Boise

[Milwaukee Midget]

I'm thinking of purchasing a certain vehicle (which I don't want to identify just yet), but I'm confused by the rules regarding which class it would run in.   


Here's the deal – the car I'm looking at is a small, closed European-built sports-type car, that's normally thought of as a 2-seater.  However, the car was available with what was called an "occasional rear seat".   This was a fold-down rear jump seat for two, which was a dealer-installed option.  Dealer-installed options on this vehicle were common and included wire wheels, an AM radio, wooden shift knob, oil cooler, luggage straps, etc.

Are we far enough on this to let us know what it is?  It sounds like an MGB GT or a Triumph GT6, which would run Coupe.  The roadsters -MGB or Spitfire - would be permitted in GT with a factory hardtop.

And you could swap the 2 litre 6 into a Spit in GT, or the Rover V8 into either.

Am I in the right part of Europe on my guess? 

[trimmers]

Well, I really don't want to spill the beans just yet, so I won't say of you're right or wrong.  I sent the question - and named the vehicle - in an E-mail I sent to Kennedy a week ago (on 10/22/12), per DW's suggestion.  I told him to check out this thread.  No response as yet.