Suggestions on what kind of N/A F engine to build

[Frankie7799]

Figure Ill throw this out there to pick youze guys brains. If one were wanting to build a naturally aspirated F size engine 2.016 to 3.014 L 123.00 to 183.99 cid, which would be the best route and the easiest way to make good power? Ive never dealt with engines of this size so I have no idea. I know you can take a SBC 350 and take 4 pistons and rods out of it to get within the parameters. What else is out there guys. Thanks in advance

[Sumner]

I have and still am looking at F engines for my lakester.  I've mostly considered ones with good potential blown.  With that in mind one of my first picks (and these are considering motors that are affordable) are:

First choice might be the Toyota JZ engines....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine

6 cylinders lots of main bearings and people are making big reliable HP with these engines.  These were hard to find, but are now coming in from Japan as they are coming out of cars over there.

Since I'm kind of a Chevy guy one I'm also leaning towards is the baby to what Sparky has there and that is the I-4 GM used in the Colorado/Canyon pickups.  He has the 6 cylinder that was used in the Trailblazer.  The I-4 and I-5 are just shorter less cylinders of the Trailblazer 6.  The 6 fits right in the top of the E motor class and the I-4 is right at the top of the F motor class. 

People are making a fairly easy 1500 HP with the 6 so 900-1000 with the 4 should be very doable.  They all use the same pistons/rods/ valve train and so forth just different cylinder count.  The stock heads flow very close to 300 cfm and with just a little work will flow about 330 cfm.  The exhaust side needs the most work as GM limited that side for emissions (what I've read).  They are running the 6's over 10,000 na but I'd shoot for about 7500 blown.  The drive train can cost a lot for the high rev limit as this is a DOHC motor with 4 valves per cylinder so you start to buy a lot of valve train components with the 6 and with the 4 about the same amount as a standard V-8.

They don't have the older GM bolt pattern for the bell housing but Sparky and I just bought adapters that allow older stuff to mount to the back of the motor.  They are about $200.

Not much out there on these motors but here is the best source I've found and I have more links if you want them....

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/

.. the site is mostly 6 owners but almost everything applies to the 4 cylinder also.

I'll be interested in seeing what others recommend,

Sum

[Stainless1]

Something with DOHC would work well
but based on experience, 2 somethings with DOHC would work better
and from what I have seen proven so far is 3 somethings with DOHC worked the best.

Unless you can borrow an F1 motor

added, Sum, he did say NA

[Sumner]

Here are a couple more links....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Atlas_engine

http://www.selfracing.com/

http://www.vortec4200.com/tech.htm

http://www.vortec4200.com/index_htm_files/vortec4200.pdf

http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/92795/tech_feature_straight_up_look_at_the_vortec_3500_straightfive_engine.aspx

[Frankie7799]

Sum, Ive looked at the 2JZ for a possible blown F combo as I know the WGB 369 roadster runs one and makes great power. There just doesnt seem to be much in the way of N/A options for those motors. I forgot about the I-4 and I-5 GM motors. I know Dick Knorr with the Black Opel has an N/A Trailblazer motor in his car and has run well with it. THat could be something to look at. 

Stainless, what 2 and 3 DOHC somethings are you referring to? I know of your lakester but dont know much about it. I know its one bad hombre and has lots of records, just didnt know what youve got for engines in it.

[kiwi belly tank]

You might want to see if these are still available & get a spare in a bulk buy.
 Sid.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9363.0.html

[Saltfever]

There is no better proving ground than any racing venue since parts are constantly broken, developed, and improved by some of the best minds and manufactures in the country. Since circler track midgets use motor similar to your size, I would think any motor used in that venue would be a good place to start. Highly developed and optimized parts are readily available and reasonably priced. Google Esslinger Engineering but don't fixate on them only . . . look at everything.

[RansomT]

The Yamaha built Taurus SHO 3.0L spins all day at 8300 RPM, with some additional oiling tricks should be able to maintain 9000.

[Saltfever]

You talking about the V-6 or the V-8?  Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful!  

[RansomT]

You talking about the V-6 or the V-8?  Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful!  

The 6 cylinder ... the ones out of the manual transmissions are 3L while the automatics are 3.2L  (bore is the only thing different)

[Saltfever]

Rains and Poteet ran one of these in Blowfish. Check those records!

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/la4.html

Review what smart people or smart money are doing and add your creativity. No question the SBC in has been used and abused more than any motor in existence. The results are one of the best cost-benefit ratios out there. Before you blow off the 4 cylinder SBC V-8 look who is using it. One of the winningest cars out there is the Cohn and Juucewic Monza and Bob choose it for reason. Do the numbers and see if any other motor combination can beat the cost.

[Sumner]

Rains and Poteet ran one of these in Blowfish. Check those records!

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/la4.html

Review what smart people or smart money are doing and add your creativity. No question the SBC in has been used and abused more than any motor in existence. The results are one of the best cost-benefit ratios out there. Before you blow off the 4 cylinder SBC V-8 look who is using it. One of the winningest cars out there is the Cohn and Juucewic Monza and Bob choose it for reason. Do the numbers and see if any other motor combination can beat the cost.

I'd love to have the Mopar midget motor above, but haven't found one anywhere near what I can budget.  I've also looked at the 1/2 of a V-8 motor and cost wise the SBC stuff is hard to beat.  You do have to know what you are doing to make one live but it has been done.  For me the V-8 in the lakester is a little too wide so I'm trying to avoid it. 

I'm also staying away from na motors as I think to be competitive there you have to spend a lot of money to get a motor that will live at high rpm.  Turbos are also not cheap but I think I can build a competitive blown motor for what "I'm doing" cheaper than a na motor but that might not be the case for all classes and current records. 

Frankie you haven't told us what this is going in.  I think SS was referring to running multiple engines but as far as I know that is only allowed in a streamliner,

Sum

[Frankie7799]

Sum, it would be for a rear engined modified roadster. All the F records are currently open in RMR at both Bonneville and El Mirage. Granted that could change by the time I get something built but if things go the way Im hoping thats what the plan will be is to build a RMR. Some things have changed in the last week so Im hoping with these changes, I might just get approval from the boss ( at home ) to do this. 

[RichFox]

You talking about the V-6 or the V-8?  Yes, they are both excellent motors but the 3.2 liter V-8 is a 60 degree which means it is an odd-fire. If you were going to run them untouched (what racer will do that, LOL) they would be an excellent choice. Since the V-8 is 60 degrees it is also a narrow design that has great fitment possibilities. The only trouble with it, its not an F motor and you would be dealing with aftermarket crank grinders on an odd-fire crank if you wanted to play with crank dimensions . . . that will be stre$$ful!  

Am I wrong again? I thought 60 degree V6 engines were even fire and that's why they are 60 degrees. And that 90 degree V6 engines were odd fire if they ran two rods on one jurnol like a V8. I had a 60 degree Nissan and I liked it. And they are cheap. Not an Indy engine by a long shot, but twin cam four valve.

[Stan Back]

Frankie --

Don't forget there are minimums at El Mirage (currently closed as our federal representatives are in a snit).