safe motorcycles LOL

[narider]

willie buchta again---this topic will be ideas on makeing your motorcycle safer and the rider ( i know a roll cage ) lets try to stay on the subject please  thanks  willie buchta

at the end of this thread i will compile a list of all the ideas--

Good thread Willie. Would be nice if some posts(poster) hadn't made it in here to help keep it more relvant to actual racers and what's actually protecting people today "here and now"... and proving to work time and time again. Just because I strap a gallon of milk to my back and survive a crash, it doens't mean that it's a proven safety device or method of racing... it just means I survived a crash and happened to have a gallon of milk on my back.


Some of our "RELEVANT TO THE HERE AND NOW FROM EXPERIENCE" thoughts include:

#1 Common sense - using what we have (using it correctly) and regulary checking it all out for deficiencies
                            a- Tether is routed to where it pull sthe switch before it rips from jacket, etc
                            b- Thumb switch is whithin reach while mantaining involuntery death grip on throttle sleeve
                            c- Zippers are used as intended and fully closed (not to help that fat calf we gained over the winter)
                            d- Suit (including gloves, boots, & helmet) all fit snug as & threads are not frayed or drying out
                            e- Shields are clean and visibility is clear (an inexpensive item to keep an extra on hand)
                            f- Rider and crew is hydrated & fed, everyone matters as the riders life depends on it (take breaks)
                            g- Post run items including tire checks, fluids (levels & leaks), loose compenent & fastener checks
                           
#2 Gear - fit of course, but that doesn't mean we have to spend it all - coverage, comfort, price & availability in that order
                            a- Leathers (fit of course, but anything from color to pocket access is included in safety considerations)
                            b- Helmet (high vertical visibility allows not having to pull helmet up off chin to tuck tight)
                            c- Boots (many seem to care more about aero & loose the coverage of a very exposed body part)
                            d- Gloves (lack of control can cause problems, make sure you can hit all buttons & get on the levers)
                            e- *Spine "&" Chest protector... as well as knee, hip, elbow & shoudler armor (check out CE ratings)
                                      *Use plastic or hard CE armor when possible, foam is to keep your beer cold after the races

#3 Pit Equipment - tools, lifts, pit vehicles(from truck and trailer to pit bikes and bicycles)
                            a- good equipment in well mantained condition (more injuries in the pits then there is on the course)
                            b- organized pit areas inside and outside the trailer ( "       "        "        "       "      "      "    "  )
                            c- Keep extra set of clothes in your truck, & extra trailer keys in your trailer (ask us why)
                            d- Write cell phone numbers in visible area in both your trauck and trailer
                            e- Cell phone in pocket of every crew member & rider (should go with gear but I think of as a tool now)
                            f- Fire extiguishers and First Aid kit in highly visible areas (trailer as as well as truck)

Deb has a post on here somewhere that inculdes some of the "post accident" stuff (some is included above).


I'm with JN on trying to keep this on subject, and people (self proclaimed experts  ) that don't race from including stuff they read somewhere else or have more 2nd hand info on. The latter just keeps alot (of poeple and their thoughts) away from this thread, and it is valuable things that many aren't saying because of the same thing. If Deb tells me she's wearing a chute on her back... well, she's off my team or I'm off hers (however that works) - and you can bet the same would happen the other way around (except she'd probably slap me around a little first) - lol. I can't imagine what would of happened had she had a chute on in her get-off... but I can imagine if a bike goes down and gets tangled up in it during some bizarre seperation.... just the mental status needed to overcome putting it on "for the average person" is ridiculous.

Let's learn to use what is proven by those that have been down and are willing to share their experiences, before we try to listen to those that want self noteriety from a subject that is so serious. 

Again,
Excellent subject Willie!
Todd                       

[Ratliff]

If someone wants to talk with a degreed engineer who has firsthand experience with using a personnel drag chute I suggest Eddie Hill.

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

[dwarner]

"dw  so what you are saying is that you think that a motorcycle rider is safer at 200 mph if ejected from his bike without a chute than with one --if thats not what you said please correct me  if it is could you please explain why    thank you  willie buchta

in the sidecar class you have to demonstrate unrestricted exit (no other motorcycle class has that restriction)but you do it in TECH not on the track so why would anyone need to demonstrate a parachute except in tech--..."

I was stating that "in my opinion"(IMO), that I didn't think an unproven so called safety item is a good idea. The single incident mentioned in this thread does not prove a tested, quantified safety item. How many times have we seen a parachute open at the start line by accident and the car run three miles towing the canopy? How many times have we seen a parachute fall out during a run at some point on the course and for that fact either not open or deploy in a lump?

Too many variables for me. Put in your rule change, state the facts and we will see what happens.

DW

[WildBro]

During another discussion abut safety (I believe here or on SHB.org) Todd enlightened me on a good practice.  To have an on/off switch for the airshifter.  As soon as he gave the scenario of Al checking my bike out for a run and accidentally touching the shift button, the bike going into gear and hurting him, it became an obvious safety requirement to me.  This may be a commen thing that most people do, but I did not know about it at the time.

As for the personal chute on my back.  I would no longer race.  I believe it would endanger my life.  Call me a pussy if you want, but it just doesn't sit right with me.  And its not just what I fear in the deployment of the chute but also the fact it would be attached to my upper back (as in pics) during the run.  At Maxton I can hold my head still for the 20+ seconds for a run, but at Bonneville I was unable to hold my head in place for the entire 5 miles.  My neck muscles would repeatedly get fatigued and relax, letting my head bounce against the steering dampener for 5 - 10 sec before I was able to flex and regain control again(and this was only at speed of high 190s)  Now imagine the chute pack grabbing wind across the top of my back....I may not be able to hold on at the speeds I am now running.

Bill

Code Select Expand

[desotoman]

If someone wants to talk with a degreed engineer who has firsthand experience with using a personnel drag chute I suggest Eddie Hill.

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

What do boats and water, have to do with the topic of Motorcycle safety on land? In a word nothing. One is a fluid and one is a solid and they cannot be compaired. One stops you pretty fast, the other you slide on. The reason boat racers started wearing small chute packs was because of all of the broken necks that occurred when they would be ejected from the boat and then hit the water. Wearing a chute in boat racing eliminated some of the broken necks because it would help turn the driver so they would hit the water feet first, and have half a chance of surviving. Most boat racers got ejected when their boat would flip up in the air so the driver was a good 8-10 feet above the surface of the water giving the driver time to get turned around before hitting the water. That same scenario would not likely happen on a motorcycle.

Tom G.

[Ratliff]

Jack McClure, Arvil Porter, Larry Welch, John Dixon.

(A) Braver than most racers

(B) Smarter than most racers

(C) All of the above

[willieworld]

dan i have no idea why you all are so concerned about someone submiting a rule change--when i started this i thought i made it clear that wasnt my agenda--i was trying to get a discussion started so that some of us that arent blessed with knowing everything might learn something to keep us safer in the future --as far as rules changes i have already submitted mine--- IMO  in my own opinion--i think that the different makeup of all the people and there opinions is what should be heard here --it doesnt matter if your the fastest racer or the slowest and maybe it doesnt matter if you are a lsr racer at all (a guy by the name of blue comes to mind --if you havent read his posts you should)   IMO-- when the day comes that anyone cant voice their opinion on an open forum like this no matter who they are then im out of here-- we can all learn something from everyone and the less we think so the more we limit ourselves---  enough of that willie buchta

[DahMurf]

If someone wants to talk with a degreed engineer who has firsthand experience with using a personnel drag chute I suggest Eddie Hill.

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

What do boats and water, have to do with the topic of Motorcycle safety on land? In a word nothing. One is a fluid and one is a solid and they cannot be compaired. One stops you pretty fast, the other you slide on. The reason boat racers started wearing small chute packs was because of all of the broken necks that occurred when they would be ejected from the boat and then hit the water. Wearing a chute in boat racing eliminated some of the broken necks because it would help turn the driver so they would hit the water feet first, and have half a chance of surviving. Most boat racers got ejected when their boat would flip up in the air so the driver was a good 8-10 feet above the surface of the water giving the driver time to get turned around before hitting the water. That same scenario would not likely happen on a motorcycle.

Tom G.

Tom, I don't know the history as you just stated, and thank you for stating it, but the pictures posted alone show me that they are not comperable.
What strikes me most is this statement

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

If they were so damn good then why do we have a "pre-capsule era"? That tells me they weren't good enough hence they now have capsules attached to chutes. In other words the best working comparison is a streamlined motorcycle. 

So, this hasn't helped me in the least! I still don't want a chute strapped to my back to snap my back or my neck in an effort to direct me ... to where... ?

Safety equipment should serve to make us safer not cause harm. Something this extreme should have a lot of good positive data to back it up. BTW, what exactly are we trying to fix here? The common motorcycle injuries that I have knowledge of in the recent LSR history, the bulk of them have occurred on initial impact. So it would seem that the air bag vest would be a better thought then a chute but it would need an angle sensor along with a tether pull as not every rider is detached from the bike on initial impact. (I recall the one out there being rather sophisticated in design but I don't recall the exact details.)

I like this topic and I hope I can learn a tid bit or two from others without having to learn them again first hand!   

Bill, thanks for the reminder on the switch! A lot of what we do is common sense/second nature to us so unless something jumps out at us we often don't think to mention it!

Deb

[Ratliff]

"dw  so what you are saying is that you think that a motorcycle rider is safer at 200 mph if ejected from his bike without a chute than with one --if thats not what you said please correct me  if it is could you please explain why    thank you  willie buchta

in the sidecar class you have to demonstrate unrestricted exit (no other motorcycle class has that restriction)but you do it in TECH not on the track so why would anyone need to demonstrate a parachute except in tech--..."

I was stating that "in my opinion"(IMO), that I didn't think an unproven so called safety item is a good idea. The single incident mentioned in this thread does not prove a tested, quantified safety item. How many times have we seen a parachute open at the start line by accident and the car run three miles towing the canopy? How many times have we seen a parachute fall out during a run at some point on the course and for that fact either not open or deploy in a lump?

Too many variables for me. Put in your rule change, state the facts and we will see what happens.

DW

NONE of the rollcages in SCTA racing are a tested, quantified safety item since EVERY SINGLE ONE is a one of a kind design with no structural calculations, finite element analysis, or crash testing backing up its design. If a vehicle has two wheels instead of four, the SCTA doesn't even require the same size rollcage tubing for the same weight vehicle moving the same speed.

So how can it be argued that a system which, in fact, has a much higher level of formal engineering and many more years of real world experience behind it meet even more requirements to prove it is a tested, quantified safety item?

[willieworld]

i'm  getting ready to put a electric shifter on a bike im building (i dont post all of them on the build diaries some are secret projects )  it came with no directions and i never thought about an off and on switch  thanks bill

deb and todd  we are saving you all a bunk  see you at the bend in the road      willie

[Ratliff]

If someone wants to talk with a degreed engineer who has firsthand experience with using a personnel drag chute I suggest Eddie Hill.

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

What do boats and water, have to do with the topic of Motorcycle safety on land? In a word nothing. One is a fluid and one is a solid and they cannot be compaired. One stops you pretty fast, the other you slide on. The reason boat racers started wearing small chute packs was because of all of the broken necks that occurred when they would be ejected from the boat and then hit the water. Wearing a chute in boat racing eliminated some of the broken necks because it would help turn the driver so they would hit the water feet first, and have half a chance of surviving. Most boat racers got ejected when their boat would flip up in the air so the driver was a good 8-10 feet above the surface of the water giving the driver time to get turned around before hitting the water. That same scenario would not likely happen on a motorcycle.

Tom G.

Tom, I don't know the history as you just stated, and thank you for stating it, but the pictures posted alone show me that they are not comperable.
What strikes me most is this statement

Attached are photos of personnel drag chutes as worn by Top Fuel boat drivers in the pre-capsule era.

If they were so damn good then why do we have a "pre-capsule era"? That tells me they weren't good enough hence they now have capsules attached to chutes. In other words the best working comparison is a streamlined motorcycle. 

So, this hasn't helped me in the least! I still don't want a chute strapped to my back to snap my back or my neck in an effort to direct me ... to where... ?

Safety equipment should serve to make us safer not cause harm. Something this extreme should have a lot of good positive data to back it up. BTW, what exactly are we trying to fix here? The common motorcycle injuries that I have knowledge of in the recent LSR history, the bulk of them have occurred on initial impact. So it would seem that the air bag vest would be a better thought then a chute but it would need an angle sensor along with a tether pull as not every rider is detached from the bike on initial impact. (I recall the one out there being rather sophisticated in design but I don't recall the exact details.)

I like this topic and I hope I can learn a tid bit or two from others without having to learn them again first hand!   

Bill, thanks for the reminder on the switch! A lot of what we do is common sense/second nature to us so unless something jumps out at us we often don't think to mention it!

Deb

Drag boats racing went to driver capsules because personnel drag chutes were the second best solution. However, since enclosing the rider is not an option with conventional open bikes then the only options are the second best solution or no solution.

[DahMurf]

So how can it be argued that a system which, in fact, has a much higher level of formal engineering and many more years of real world experience behind it meet even more requirements to prove it is a tested, quantified safety item?

It's pretty simple, if you're going to suggest/ask/demand that I strap a chute to my back before I make a run down the track you damn sure better back up it's safety record with real world application specific data or you can bet I'm going to be sitting on the side lines sharing a brew with Bill!

Ratliff, why don't you strap on a chute and go test it out for us on a high speed open bike & get back to us on the data? Of course you'll need to wreck several times with and without it to quantify your results. IMO, no one should be recommending safety equipment they're not already using or planning to use. If you're not willing to put your own tush on the line then please don't try push it on others.

And again, I'm still trying to figure out what we're trying to fix with the chute on an open bike?

There are established standards for roll cage materials and applications blah blah blah. That prior statement does even warrant a response.

Willie, Todd & I are very much looking forward to meeting you & Sherri! It will be fun to have these conversations with you face to face! I have a feeling we're all going to get along famously! Wow I can't believe we'll be out there in no time! 

Deb

[Ratliff]

So how can it be argued that a system which, in fact, has a much higher level of formal engineering and many more years of real world experience behind it meet even more requirements to prove it is a tested, quantified safety item?

It's pretty simple, if you're going to suggest/ask/demand that I strap a chute to my back before I make a run down the track you damn sure better back up it's safety record with real world application specific data or you can bet I'm going to be sitting on the side lines sharing a brew with Bill!

Ratliff, why don't you strap on a chute and go test it out for us on a high speed open bike & get back to us on the data? Of course you'll need to wreck several times with and without it to quantify your results. IMO, no one should be recommending safety equipment they're not already using or planning to use. If you're not willing to put your own tush on the line then please don't try push it on others.

And again, I'm still trying to figure out what we're trying to fix with the chute on an open bike?

There are established standards for roll cage materials and applications blah blah blah. That prior statement does even warrant a response.

Willie, Todd & I are very much looking forward to meeting you & Sherri! It will be fun to have these conversations with you face to face! I have a feeling we're all going to get along famously! Wow I can't believe we'll be out there in no time! 

Deb

John Dixon had previously clocked over 240 mph with his rocket bike and was shooting for 250 mph on the run where he separated from the bike. So there is good reason to believe that deployment of Dixon's chute occurred at a much higher speed than any of the instances involving drag boats.

"Harry Volpi's Driver Decelerator [1969]

Safety Device Developed For Unlimited Racers

A new life support system for Unlimited drivers and other classes of water racers has been announced by Unlimited Vice-President J. Lee Schoenith.

Harry Volpi, chairman of the Unlimited and Gold Cup Technical and Safety Committee conducted a project of research and development which led to the new parachute safety system. The project was instituted as a result of a series of severe accidents in Unlimited racing during the 1968 season.

Research indicated that a driver involved in a hydro accident flies through the air for a short distance, laterally or vertically. The new system is designed so that a decelerator is released and force-inflated when a driver is thrown from his boat. The device slows the driver down and deposits him gently in the water after he has traveled either 84' laterally or 5½' vertically.

A lanyard arrangement connects driver to boat, providing a trigger mechanism, Volpi says. He worked with a number of firms, most of which worked on a volunteer basis: The Pioneer Parachute Co., which will produce the first units; University of Notre Dame Department of Aerospace Engineering; Naval Air Development Center; Goodyear Aerospace Corp., Raven Industries; All-American Engineering Co.; Joint Parachute Test Facility, Dept. of Defense; San Diego Aircraft Engineering Corp.; NASA Research Centre; Jalbert Aerology Laboratories, Inc.; U.S. Air Force Dynamics Laboratories; Irvin Industries; Civil Aeromedical Research Institute, FAA.

"We won't really know if it's failsafe unless we have a serious accident," said Volpi, "but if such an accident occurs, we will know that we have given a race driver the best possible chance of survival."

(Reprinted from Sea and Pacific Motor Boat, December 1969, pp.27, 115)"

[Ratliff]

During another discussion abut safety (I believe here or on SHB.org) Todd enlightened me on a good practice.  To have an on/off switch for the airshifter.  As soon as he gave the scenario of Al checking my bike out for a run and accidentally touching the shift button, the bike going into gear and hurting him, it became an obvious safety requirement to me.  This may be a commen thing that most people do, but I did not know about it at the time.

As for the personal chute on my back.  I would no longer race.  I believe it would endanger my life.  Call me a pussy if you want, but it just doesn't sit right with me.  And its not just what I fear in the deployment of the chute but also the fact it would be attached to my upper back (as in pics) during the run.  At Maxton I can hold my head still for the 20+ seconds for a run, but at Bonneville I was unable to hold my head in place for the entire 5 miles.  My neck muscles would repeatedly get fatigued and relax, letting my head bounce against the steering dampener for 5 - 10 sec before I was able to flex and regain control again(and this was only at speed of high 190s)  Now imagine the chute pack grabbing wind across the top of my back....I may not be able to hold on at the speeds I am now running.

Bill

Code Select Expand

Explain to me how the result of something which FILLS IN the area of low pressure (partial vacuum) and turbulence behind your helmet would be to make the buffeting worse, because I'm just not following your hypothesis.

[WildBro]

During another discussion abut safety (I believe here or on SHB.org) Todd enlightened me on a good practice.  To have an on/off switch for the airshifter.  As soon as he gave the scenario of Al checking my bike out for a run and accidentally touching the shift button, the bike going into gear and hurting him, it became an obvious safety requirement to me.  This may be a commen thing that most people do, but I did not know about it at the time.

As for the personal chute on my back.  I would no longer race.  I believe it would endanger my life.  Call me a pussy if you want, but it just doesn't sit right with me.  And its not just what I fear in the deployment of the chute but also the fact it would be attached to my upper back (as in pics) during the run.  At Maxton I can hold my head still for the 20+ seconds for a run, but at Bonneville I was unable to hold my head in place for the entire 5 miles.  My neck muscles would repeatedly get fatigued and relax, letting my head bounce against the steering dampener for 5 - 10 sec before I was able to flex and regain control again(and this was only at speed of high 190s)  Now imagine the chute pack grabbing wind across the top of my back....I may not be able to hold on at the speeds I am now running.

Bill

Code Select Expand

Explain to me how the result of something which FILLS IN the area of low pressure (partial vacuum) and turbulence behind your helmet would be to make the buffeting worse, because I'm just not following your hypothesis.

I am not worried about the small percentage of the chute pack that is behind my helmet, but rather the large part of the pack that protrudes out over each shoulder.  I am going by the pics you have supplied, appling them to the real life situation I would be in with them.
Here is a pic of me at speed, just imagine the pack sticking out past my helmet 4" or 5" on each side.  Please also note my shoulders are rounded down into the tuck not squared off like on the rider in the pics with the chute.