why are 2and 4 strokes in the same class?

[willieworld]

narider has it figered out the 2 stroke engine is not an otto cycle engine --a 4 stroke engine is an otto cycle engine --the rule says  "an engine using thermodynamic cycle other than Otto.This class includes electric, steam and turbine engines." i think narider gets it --i get it --i just dont think the SCTA does.--------and i think it needs to be cleared up by a rule clarifacition -- just some thoughts ---------------  willie buchta

[dwarner]

www.scta-bni.org

Rule change forms are on the front page of the website.

DW

[desotoman]

Internal-Combustion Engine, any type of machine that obtains mechanical energy directly from the expenditure of the chemical energy of fuel burned in a combustion chamber that is an integral part of the engine. Four principal types of internal-combustion engines are in general use: the Otto-cycle engine, the diesel engine, the rotary engine, and the gas turbine. For the various types of engines employing the principle of jet propulsion, see Jet Propulsion; Rocket. The Otto-cycle engine, named after its inventor, the German technician Nikolaus August Otto, is the familiar gasoline engine used in automobiles and airplanes; the diesel engine, named after the French-born German engineer Rudolf Christian Karl Diesel, operates on a different principle and usually uses oil as a fuel. It is employed in electric-generating and marine-power plants, in trucks and buses, and in some automobiles.Both Otto-cycle and diesel engines are manufactured in two-stroke and four-stroke cycle models.

Tom G.

[hawkwind]

The rotary engine is penalised (overly IMHO) as should be the 2 smoke , no need for NEW classes , just have a formulae to penalise the 2 smoker , 2 strokes  should run against 4 strokes of double the capacity  eg 250cc 2 stroke competes in the 500cc class ,this would even up the playing field
cheers
gary

[Stainless1]

AND BE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ? NO I Dare to be Different,and have my own Personal Speed Goals,but it sure would be Nice to get a Few of those Hats
I Have Tried to do a Trade for a LSR Busa "a 5 Caret Diamond engagement ring worth 3X's what the Bikes Cost"
,but He Got Cold FEET :|! If I knew then what I know now Things would have been different.but I'm in Way too Deep Now to Quit:|!
Mad Max -"aka Kansas City Badman " has been my New Inspiration as he has the Ball's & $$$$$ to do it His Way ! The Same with Denis Manning 8-)!
Any Monkey with a Check Book can Buy a 250mph Turbo Hayabusa,but it takes a Real FOOL to try it on a HD V-Rod !

SKaz, Max has the balls to do it his way, the $$$$ are another issue.  Maybe you should re-read his website and my thread showing the bike going back together.  He has made most of his bike himself, the parts others have done are singled out.  Max lives on social security and his Navy retirement (that's not a lot of cash).  He is not independently wealthy(check the garage in the background of the pics), he has not spent $1M plus on this quest, but he has dedicated many years of his life in the quest to go fast with his vintage stuff. 

On the other hand, if you think any monkey with a checkbook can go fast, why haven't you?    A lot of LSR racers build all their own stuff and don't get records or in the 2 club without whining, they just keep trying... 
See ya on the salt  8-)

[Stan Back]

John --

There are enuf people bitching about minimums -- and you think it would fly changing them mid-meet?  Mid-run?

Stan Back

[DahMurf]

I have to say I disagree with John about changing minimums mid meet or mid year. Reviewing them and adjusting them yearly like the racing rules I think is palatable and should be done as early in the year as possible. People spend a lot of time planning and building with a class in mind. Sometimes it's hard enough dealing with a rule change a few months before a meet. We all understand and accept that class records can increase as we pursue them but I think it's easier to take when there's an actual tangible vehicle that you can look at & study that has done it. Some of the 2 club minimums are speeds above the existing class record and nobody has achieved them yet. They are set based on fact and theory. We've already seen that some of the 2000cc motorcycle class records are proving harder to obtain then the 1650cc motorcycle class records. Bigger isn't always reliable & better!
I just can't come up with the right words on this one. I know the 2 club isn't out there to make it easy on anyone or to make friends but to change the minimum requirements right before a meet or during a meet just reeks of elitism and bad politics. If one is looking to protect the sanctity and prestige of the 2 club, in my opinion, changing the minimums on the fly without the actual record increasing will have the opposite and negative effect. It's already happened and some great racers have already walked away. I'd really hate to see that practice continue as it will only serve to tarnish the image and history of great accomplishment.
Deb

[narider]

b]Both Otto-cycle and diesel engines are manufactured in two-stroke and four-stroke cycle models.[/b]
Tom G.

Thank you Tom, something exactly like that is what I was hoping or thinking someone might bring up. I did a little searching and found the same statement in some areas of definition and principle, but I also found some stating quite the contrary and specifically excluding the 2-strokes from the Otto Cycle configuration. It's all written on the internet so it has to be true right?  

I'm keeping my ears and eyes open before I write up anything (in reccomending a rule or even a clarification change) though. By the way Dan, I (and Deb as well) have a couple things I'll be submitting - but by reccomendation I committed first to becoming a member of a club (completed thanks to many of you including JackD, JohnN and of course SDRC which I want to be more involved in once I get more history under me), and second to putting a productive foot on the salt before sticking same foot in mouth (departure for project "go west young man" will be initiated in exactly 101 hours from now  8-)).  

Anyone else wanting changes should do the same as far as submitting those changes... I imagine the more submittions received the closer a rule may be looked at for change elegibity.

Personally, I'd like to hear more from the "2-strokes don't belong in the Omega class" crowd that has either substantial or well verbalized reasoning for that statement (such as what Tom just posted above for instance).

There's enough reason to consider either interpretation by the way the rule is currently written in the book, so to me that means the correct approach and next logical step would be to more accurately define and interpret the term Otto Cycle in the eyes of the SCTA.
Todd

[narider]

Eric, I think this is an excellent post and question you brought up! If we don't uderstand, we're allowed to ask why or why not,,, as long as we're willing to either accept and abide by the answer or offer a different outlook and solution to the powers that be.
Todd

[dwarner]

"...changing the minimums on the fly..."

Rest assured that this will not happen as long as I am a member of the 200 MPH club board.

DW

[DahMurf]

"...changing the minimums on the fly..."

Rest assured that this will not happen as long as I am a member of the 200 MPH club board.

DW

(Sorry for the I am interested in the 2/4 stroke Otto topic and am reading with interest I just have nothing to add.)

Deb

[John Noonan]

Deb, Dan

The post was tongue in cheek as Kaz has been whining about "getting a hat" and makes comments about racers that build/buy the fastest bikes to start with, funny thing is that many racers like Campos, Minnono, Wilson, Moreland, Hess etc have all been much faster and without the assistance of a Turbo and some have done it in a gas class and running carbs..

It will be interesting at Bonneville to see several Turbo Busas running naked to be the first to take a chance at getting a hat..in the M-BF 1350 class..

I seem to remember years ago a racer (don't remember if it was a driver or rider) that qualified on either a minimum or a record and then was told at the salt that he would have to run a higher number to "get a hat"..anyone remember who or when that was..?

Well have to go take my fairings of now.

See you all on the salt.. :lol:

[jdincau]

Not running a bike I have no axe to grind but we have been through this before on this forum. I still say the crank case scavenged two stroke is called the Day cycle. It was invented by Joseph Day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle 

Jim     

[DahMurf]

Deb, Dan

The post was tongue in cheek as Kaz has been whining about "getting a hat" and makes comments about racers that build/buy the fastest bikes to start with, funny thing is that many racers like Campos, Minnono, Wilson, Moreland, Hess etc have all been much faster and without the assistance of a Turbo and some have done it in a gas class and running carbs..

I agree and I think the ace in the hole is to think outside of the box and do something a little different or that someone else hasn't done yet. There's more then one way in you just have to be willing to do it different.

All whining ever gets you is ==>  & cheese 

It will be interesting at Bonneville to see several Turbo Busas running naked to be the first to take a chance at getting a hat..in the M-BF 1350 class..

Well have to go take my fairings of now.

Taking the fairings off  wait, hey, wanna lend me your bike so I can run the record up before you try to top Bill?!!?

I seem to remember years ago a racer (don't remember if it was a driver or rider) that qualified on either a minimum or a record and then was told at the salt that he would have to run a higher number to "get a hat"..anyone remember who or when that was..?

The one I'm thinking of is a pushrod guy. I don't necessarily know the whole story but its the one that sticks out in my mind.  8-)

This concludes this installment of (well at least until John responds and the laughter subsides!)

.... still pondering the 2/4 strokes....  have any 2 strokes been over 200 mph? Did we already answer this? Maybe that's why we're discussing this. No time to check records/notes. hmm.... 

Deb

[Dean Los Angeles]

The rotary engine is penalised (overly IMHO) as should be the 2 smoke , no need for NEW classes , just have a formulae to penalise the 2 smoker , 2 strokes  should run against 4 strokes of double the capacity  eg 250cc 2 stroke competes in the 500cc class ,this would even up the playing field

This is Land Speed Racing. A venue for the fastest vehicles on the planet. If you want a level playing field go run bracket classes at the drag strip.

Instead of trying to change the rules how about just following them?

Nobody wants to level the playing field.