Milwaukee Midget

[Milwaukee Midget]

This is probably too late to be any help, but there *might* be some power to be had by switching the inlet bells on the carb to something like Prof Gordon Blair's "Best Bell"   http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf

Roy -

Part of the pulls we did included changing out the trumpets, based on the flow work Mark has been doing.

I'll let him go into the details, but to summarize, it is SHOCKING how much airflow an expensive, beautifully CNC crafted, polished and anodized bell can dial off of your flow!  

[Peter Jack]

Congratulations Chris and crew! It's really nice to see when large amounts of quality work produce truly amazing results. 

Pete

[Stan Back]

Chris --

Perhaps now you can answer the age-old question -- How much speed did the Moon discs pick up?

Stan



(Great work -- great result.  No more 22s now.)

[Tman]

Sounds pissed off, and that's a good thing!

[barrybill]

Outstanding to see such a little old design motor pull so good. Gives me hope for the Studebaker.  Barry

[Dr Goggles]

I can't remember what deal I committed to, what I do seem to remmeber was in Aussie dollars, that has seen a fall lately.....was I one of the 10 bucks a horse over 90 or what.....

Despite all that we are mighty, mighty proud of you ya big goof, and you Mark you DYB DYB DYBBed............

let me know what I owe and I'll go steal a handbag.....

[Milwaukee Midget]

OK.

I am flat broke, in fact I am borderline solvent with an uncertain outlook, but that's another story.....

This site has provided immense entertainment and useful information for us over the years and that is without mentioning the friendships my friends here and I have made. It's a drop in centre for the hare-brained thrill seekers and an in-joke fest for the OCD hard heads that most here are.

$1 per horse, plus fifty if you break it, even if I have to steal it.

There , that should just about tip the scales to 50%.

Theivery doesn't become you, Doc.

I'm sure Jon will float you for a while, and it's too far to travel to break your kneecaps.

. . . don't leave a paper trail . . . 

[fordboy628]

This is probably too late to be any help, but there *might* be some power to be had by switching the inlet bells on the carb to something like Prof Gordon Blair's "Best Bell"   http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf

How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly  OR

Weber Carburetor Porn!!!!  OR

How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . .   Part five . . . .  (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . .)

Roygoodwin, Midget, et all,

Yes, there is probably a bhp or 2 with full radius inlet bells of the "proper" shape, and normally I would like to airflow test some for the application, and dyno test those/any that show airflow improvements.

I no longer am in agreement with "the guys" who suggest you dyno test any and everything with the idea you "might" "find something".   Dyno testing time is expensive, AND, worth every penny you spend on it.    BUT, there are so many permutations, SOMEBODY has to limit the combinations, and therefore the number of pulls, down to something resembling sanity.    At this point in time, if a part does not show an airflow improvement, or at least equality, I do not recommend testing it, PERIOD.    This idea that a part that is an airflow dog "might" be a dyno winner MAY pan out from time to time.    In general however, my experience has been: airflow dogs = dyno test dogs.   I would like to say it differently, but I have perservered many times, and was almost ALWAYS disappointed . . . . . . .   Mark's Rule #1 "SHOW ME THE DATA, THE MATH OR THE PHYSICS THAT SUPPORTS THAT CHOICE."    Feel free to use my rule(s).

I used to have a large variety of inlet air horns for various size Webers, but as I became semi-retired, they were some of the first things I sold off.   We ended up with a total of 3 choices for inlet air horns:

1/   Std Weber 45DCOE air horn; 60mm length, 7/16ths radius x 45 degress (approx), 46mm ID
2/   Modified (poorly) 48DCOE air horn, surface mount; 29mm length, 7/16ths radius x 45 degrees (approx), 48mm ID
3/   Aftermarket Full radius bells for 45DCOE, on loan for testing; 32mm length, 11/32nds radius x 180 degrees, 12 degree internal taper, 43mm ID

     note that the radius of the aftermarket bell is smaller than the stock Weber radius and the ID is smaller as well . . . . . . . .


OK, put on your thinking caps, (you know, the ones with the additional brain cooling . .  ), here are the full carb flow testing results, ALL tests @ WOT and 28" test pressure:

Test Description                                                                     Test #               Airflow (cfm)               "Signal" (as a % of airflow)
Spanish Mfgd 45DCOE Std, no mods, 38mm choke                       1                       240                                154
Full MB mods w 48 air horn, 38mm mod choke                             2                       260                                148
As above w 45 air horn                                                               3                       260                                153
As above std booster                                                                  4                       244                                155
As above std 38 choke                                                                5                       242                                154
Full MB mods w 45 air horn, 40mm mod choke                             6                       269                                 145
As above w full radius air horn                                                     7                       264                                145
As above w 48 air horn                                                               8                       270                                 146
Mod throttle screws, full "race" booster, horn, 41mm choke           9                       263                                 152    (parts from a "full race" 1310cc 45DCOE carb)
Mod throttle screws, 5.0 booster, 40mm choke, w 48 air horn        10                     264                                 141
As above 45 air horn                                                                  11                     264                                  141
Std throttle screws, mod booster, 40mm choke, 45 air horn           12                     265                                 144
As above 48 air horn                                                                  13                     266                                  144
As above, full radius air horn                                                       14                     258                                 144

Race prepped 45DCOE by MB for Milwaukee Midget; mod booster,
mod throttle screws/shaft, mod 38mm choke, 45 air horns  LH       15                     260                                 156
as above, RH                                                                              16                     260                                 153

Some photos of the parts, before & after the modifications and of the air horn choices . . . . . .


Some interesting results occur if you base your judgements solely on how parts look . . . . the crappy looking airhorn flows the best, the trick anodized full radius airhorn flows less than the stock 45DCOE airhorn . . . . .      That's why they make flowbenches, right?   But I guess you have to USE one to get the benefits.  

Conclusions:    

A/   Careful modification of stock Weber bits can pay off big time.   Combinations of well crafted modifications can really help . . . . . .
B/   Just because you paid a lot of money for some trick looking bits doesn't mean they flow more air . . . . . .
C/   Every part combination needs to be tested and documented.  If you pay someone to do mods, they should supply you with before & after numbers, showing improvement.
D/   It's easy to have big flow #'s and a low "signal" %.    The carb with those parts will not work very well . . . . . .
E/   Note that the full radius air horn LOST airflow in EVERY test combination!!
F/   Etc, etc.   Well, you are going to have to get out your calculators/sliderules and do some of the work yourselves . . . . .

How upset do you think the owner of the full race 1310cc engine is?      His expensive 41mm choke, full radius airhorn carb flows 7 cfm less    than the setup Chris' 999cc ended up with at the end of the testing . . . . . .    Whose engine do you think has a greater airflow demand?         Hmm, 2.6% less airflow (with expensive "trick" parts no less!) for an engine 31% larger . . . . . .  :|

The bottom line on this last day of testing was to determine which of Midget's parts would be useable or could be made useful.    Testing like this is strictly a financial decision, ie, "How much MORE do I have to spend to make this thing work properly."    Can one of my existing inlet manifolds work?   Or are they both junk?   Can my carb work well?   Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.   You get the idea.

In the finish, it was a compromise.   It ALWAYS IS.   Unless you are racing for money and/or are a factory team.
Hope I made you think enough to raise the temperature of your brain . . . . . .  

Fordboy

[Jack Gifford]

... click . . . on . . . this . . .

Well... I clicked on the image of the dyno room, and got... nothing! Does it work for everybody else?

OOPS!! I hadn't given photobucket enough time to finish downloading.

Engine sounds great! Congratulations on all the meticulous work.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Jack, here's a direct link - just cut and paste it into your browser. 

http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Dynoday/DSCN5151_zps2b59b46d.mp4.html

[Jack Gifford]

Okay, you also won the keyboard race...

[fordboy628]

Midget,

Your engine has been kidnapped by Soul-ful terrorist Hamsters from Kentucky and is being held for ransom.



While attempting to negotiate with them, (ever tried to speak hamster?!?*), I let it slip that the actual cash value on fleabay is about $.10/bhp USD . . . . .  

They are inconSOULable.

They threatened to shoot it, but they were unaware of the explosive disassembly risk every time it runs . . . .  

After much SOUL-searching on my part, please advise as to potential courses of action . . . . .

I say wait them out until they will pay you to take it back . . . . . .  

Rodentinator

[wisdonm]

Wow! A twin engined Soul. I've seen a CRX and an Eldorado with twins, but this is the first Soul.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Are you sure that's not spelled Seoul?

If it were built in Iowa, it would be called "DeMon".

[Ron Gibson]

SSS
  I'll see Chris's 95.1 and raise the bet 20. The checks in the mail (ONE of the most famous lies ).

Ron